The Incredible Journey of an Iraqi Refugee

00:26.99
reflexio
So Yvonne, nice to see you again.

00:29.67
Ivan
Nice to see you too, Don.

00:31.77
reflexio
And welcome to our conversation. um We've known each other for several decades. And you've had like you've had experiences in like four different major parts of the world.

00:44.67
reflexio
So your life is pretty interesting. Do you want to sort of start off by just telling us a little bit about where it all started and maybe how you got to England and get that part?

00:55.36
Ivan
Sure.

00:56.04
reflexio
Yeah.

00:57.10
Ivan
First, I want to just thank you for this opportunity. It's quite a daunting task to talk about this, and it's a real privilege for me to be able to share with you and with all who are watching and listening. So, yeah, I come from Iraq originally. I am i'm born into a mixed family of my mother is Armenian, so she's culturally Christian, but she's an unbelieving Christian, never went to church with her.

01:25.36
Ivan
um And my dad is Arab, so he's also culturally Muslim, but he was a communist. So we yeah I was brought up in a family that, yeah, religion wasn't ever talked about.

01:40.10
Ivan
I never went to a mosque or worship properly in a church.

01:40.60
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

01:44.83
Ivan
So I feel I carry these two cultures with me and it's a

01:49.24
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

01:50.94
Ivan
it's like It's a good thing because further on in my life, these other cultures have started coming in and I consider myself very blessed to be able to take on more cultures and and knowing people and just what the Lord had in mind when He created us and the way that He wants to bring us into His new creation from all nations, people and languages.

01:52.18
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

02:01.81
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

02:13.98
Ivan
so Yeah, so that's I yeah i've kind of ah lived in Iraq for 10 years. And then my dad had to escape the country because he was against the government.

02:28.21
Ivan
At that time Saddam Hussein was the president. So because he was a communist, he had to flee. he was ah Part of his is work was he was a theater actor and all the people who were

02:39.89
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

02:41.31
reflexio
No.

02:41.29
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

02:44.25
Ivan
creative or ah had some influence on society were targeted by the government at that point.

02:46.11
reflexio
No.

02:50.31
Ivan
So he left, he went to Lebanon. This is in 1979. And at that time, there was a civil war going on in Lebanon. And yeah, my mom and my sister and me followed him a few months later.

03:04.56
Ivan
And we lived in Lebanon for three years. And we were living in the part which was the area where the ah Palestinians and the Communist Party of Lebanon and more of the socialist parties ah were in.

03:17.27
Jenn Chen
me

03:20.48
Ivan
And yeah, during that time, I mean, it was quite an interesting situation. There was lots of bombs going off. And and then in 1982, Israel invaded and and they tried to get rid of the Palestinians.

03:34.90
Ivan
And at that time, me and my mom were only in Lebanon. And then we had to escape and go to Syria. And Yeah, I ended up but at the age of 13 being sent to study on my own living in a boarding school in the and Czechoslovakia at that time because my mom and dad did not know where to go.

03:51.10
Jenn Chen
wow

03:57.20
Ivan
So ah they ended up going to Yemen, ah South Yemen at that point. And having me there with them was not an option.

04:02.34
reflexio
Wow.

04:04.90
Ivan
They thought about my education and you know what kind of life I will have. So they opted to send me ah even though it was very hard to be separated from them at that age.

04:15.57
Ivan
So I went and lived in the Czech Republic.

04:16.02
Jenn Chen
e

04:17.81
Ivan
At that time it was Czechoslovakia, as I said. And I ended up living there eight years. I studied four years of secondary school and then ah started university, but I didn't finish it.

04:24.64
Jenn Chen
Wow.

04:30.08
Ivan
So yeah, that's kind of the first major stop of ah of a different culture that ah came out of leaving Iraq.

04:36.10
Jenn Chen
Wow.

04:41.14
reflexio
So you had to learn the language too, of course.

04:41.71
Jenn Chen
<unk>

04:43.84
Ivan
Yeah, you have to spend the first year ah learning only Czech language because that's what they will teach you in. And yeah, it was very interesting time.

04:54.04
Ivan
I mean, obviously it was a socialist country and I was a teenager during that time and it was the most informative year of my life.

04:59.51
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

05:03.11
Ivan
I became a communist as well at the age of 17. And yeah, it was it was a very yeah interesting time of growing up in a and an environment where, yeah, we we didn't have your family.

05:18.50
Ivan
I think the first time I saw my mother after all that time when we were separated was four years later, and she didn't recognize me.

05:25.99
Jenn Chen
Wow.

05:26.33
Ivan
So my dad, five years later, um so yeah, and this is just for a period of a month.

05:27.59
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

05:33.19
Ivan
She came to visit, then my dad came the next year, and then I think I saw my sister about seven or eight years after we we didn't see each other.

05:36.48
Jenn Chen
Wow.

05:41.96
Ivan
and

05:42.82
reflexio
Wow.

05:42.71
Ivan
Yeah, so it wasn't an easy time, but it was it was a time where it shaped my personality, I guess.

05:51.92
reflexio
can you Can you give an example of the kind of impact it had on you? Because it was a very formative those are formative years for all of us. phil And you were by yourself? What did it make do to you?

06:00.73
Ivan
Yeah, I mean, I was in a, yeah, I was in a, you know, like a boarding school where other international students were living. And the school I went to was mixed check people and other ah foreign students.

06:16.69
Ivan
and This is in a very small town outside of Prague, like for, you know, about 100 kilometers away from Prague.

06:22.79
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

06:22.88
Ivan
And Yeah, I think it wasn't easy to start with. I was a very naive and very sheltered a child.

06:29.71
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

06:32.14
Ivan
When we were in Lebanon, actually the last year and a half, I didn't even go to school because there was a lot of fighting going on in the school I used to go to.

06:35.57
Jenn Chen
Wow.

06:41.01
Ivan
It was a it was a refugee Palestinian refugee camp school.

06:43.79
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

06:45.67
Ivan
So I stopped going to school and I used to wake up in the morning, just watch TV. I learned a bit of English from just watching TV and, you know, reading the subtitles.

06:56.06
Ivan
So when I went to check, it was it was a another reality that I had to adapt to without my family.

06:57.09
Jenn Chen
Mm hmm.

07:03.84
Ivan
And but you had wonderful camaraderie with friends, people that were in the same situation like us.

07:09.27
Jenn Chen
see

07:13.11
Ivan
and I guess one of the most important things that actually impacted my life further and particularly it had an impact on the time when I when I turned and I followed Jesus, was that at that time, I was, I guess, in a sense, um very self-reliant.

07:32.55
Ivan
I was, you know, the kind of everything you can imagine about someone depending on this on themselves and going it alone and fighting for everything.

07:33.85
Jenn Chen
Hmm. Hmm. Yeah.

07:45.65
Ivan
So I shaped this personality where I thought I am kind of indestructible, nobody,

07:49.51
Jenn Chen
Mm

07:51.100
Ivan
Nobody tells me what to do.

07:52.91
Jenn Chen
-hmm.

07:53.68
Ivan
I am in charge of my life. I can go through every problem that I face because I've had some and I was able to um overcome it. So that kind of personality where I was really, yeah, philosophy of life was all about me believing that I can do it.

08:15.95
Ivan
It's all in my hands. and and I can go through any any situation, which later on proved to be very, very false, if I would say the least.

08:21.88
Jenn Chen
me

08:28.02
Jenn Chen
me

08:29.22
reflexio
Wow, wow. Jen, do feel free to jump in, but um how did you get to England and and what, I mean, we can't go through and detail the whole story, but what are some, yeah, how did you get there and what happened to you there?

08:34.12
Jenn Chen
Wow, thanks for sharing that.

08:46.96
Ivan
Well, I think one of the issues were that we were separated from my family and, you know, everyone was in a different country. So ah towards the end of the 80s, obviously in 1989, there was the Velvet Revolution and the whole Berlin Wall in Germany fell and the whole country went through transformation away from communism and socialism. And at that time, I think I wasn't sure that I want to stay anymore in Czech.

09:17.63
Ivan
And we made the decision as a family, although we were all in a different place. My sister was studying in Russia. My father was in Greece working.

09:26.79
Jenn Chen
wow

09:26.84
Ivan
My mom was in Syria. So we all decided that we're going to have to find a way to meet together. And my uncle, my dad's brother, lived in England like from the 60s.

09:39.21
Ivan
So we just thought, well, maybe we can all try and ah make our way to England and to the to Britain, so found ah ways that are not appropriate, but made myself as ah came to the UK as an illegal asylum seeker.

09:55.63
Jenn Chen
me Wow.

09:56.97
Ivan
I landed in the airport and applied for asylum in 1990. And then my family, each one by one, just followed. So I could say I'm one of those people who is an asylum seeker.

10:09.99
Ivan
They're not very popular these days. But yeah, I came and the British government welcomed me at that time. And it was a time of real, and real unsettlement in Iraq.

10:23.08
Ivan
I mean, Saddam was still in power. He just invaded Kuwait.

10:25.98
Jenn Chen
Mm hmm.

10:27.59
Ivan
It was the first Gulf War. I remember my immigration interview happened actually just the day after when ah the operation, I can't remember what it was called, Desert Storm or something, when and they you know they went to liberate Kuwait. So it was, um yeah, going back to Iraq was impossible. And yeah, it was a time where it was a different challenge trying to understand how I deal with the issues of a country that I felt obviously belonging to being under attack and at the same time knowing that we need to get rid of Saddam and but sadly politically thinking again that was one of the disappointments which and the disillusionment which which really happened is that you know there was a lot of rhetoric about getting rid of Saddam at that point and he was an evil person you know if we were talking politically

11:01.93
Jenn Chen
Yeah, yeah.

11:04.29
reflexio
Mmm. Mmm.

11:22.89
Ivan
I mean, in one day he he used chemical weapons and killed 5,000 Kurdish people. So nobody speaks about those things at that time, but only came up later when they he wasn't because he wasn't the friend of those.

11:31.18
Jenn Chen
Yeah, yeah.

11:37.11
Ivan
He was a friend before. So anyway, so yeah, though that happened. And yeah, I settled in the UK. I started and getting into a bit of film producing and learning more about production, video production. I was helping an independent company which did documentaries for British TV and I kind of learned how to film and record and produce and and that became kind of the career that I followed later.

12:14.53
Jenn Chen
Wow.

12:16.78
reflexio
So we're Christians here, and up to this some point, you had no exposure that you've mentioned to anything to do with faith.

12:22.84
Jenn Chen
e

12:25.27
reflexio
So I don't know, if you want to tell a bit of that journey, I mean, yeah.

12:26.59
Ivan
Yeah. I think, I think, as I said, this whole experience of being self-reliant played a key role, but I guess with the disillusionment also that happened later, I've always considered myself, you know, when I was aware of who I am and all that, I considered myself as an atheist.

12:32.40
Jenn Chen
careful

12:44.81
Ivan
I wasn't, to you know, I, I actually, you know, completely hated any idea of, of God. For me, it was it was a fairy tale.

12:56.02
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

12:58.82
Ivan
It didn't matter what religion or...

13:00.90
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

13:01.16
Ivan
It's just like all people who thought about deity or God, for me, were basically deluded people.

13:07.29
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

13:09.25
Ivan
They were weak people. They were people who were manipulated by establishment and institutions that brainwashed them.

13:14.13
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

13:17.78
Ivan
So you know in London, you get sometimes somebody coming to talk to you about Jesus or something like that. And I remember a couple of times like loathing those people. I just hated them because I just thought if there was a God, if there was a God, what kind of a God allows all the suffering in the world?

13:28.11
Jenn Chen
Hmm. Hmm.

13:34.83
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

13:36.64
Ivan
You know, it's a very typical question that people ask, but I had a kind of experience, first-time experience of it.

13:38.18
Jenn Chen
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

13:43.09
Ivan
And I thought like if there was a God and he didn't want to do anything about the evil, he must have been so

13:44.14
Jenn Chen
Yeah.

13:51.45
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

13:51.48
Ivan
nasty that enjoyed this and he just if he created anything we would like experiment that he just laughed at so yeah it was it was not a place that I was I was at all interested and and for me it's it's as I then you know the circumstances led me to

13:58.85
Jenn Chen
Mm

14:11.73
Ivan
to get into a church. and I'm not going to go into it much because it just will take us away and it's too complicated. So, um but I started going to a church because of the circumstances I faced.

14:24.91
Jenn Chen
-hmm.

14:25.63
Ivan
And one of the most important things that I had a crisis of kind of existential crisis. I thought, as I said, I have control over my life and I didn't. And it was so obviously made for me that

14:35.08
Jenn Chen
Mmm.

14:37.52
Ivan
i I don't have any control. So I was depressed and really contemplating silly things. and But then I just thought like, well, you know, I've always hated this idea of God and there was someone involved in my life that ah kind of went to a church.

14:56.02
Ivan
And I just thought, well, you know, why don't I just kind of find out a bit more? And I'm quite intelligent. If there is something that is fishy or is not true, I will discover it. and But I really thought I should just give God a chance. And I started reading the Bible from the Old Testament. I remember going to the church, which I ended up becoming a believer through.

15:18.23
Ivan
meeting people and they used to tell me, ah read the Gospels, you know read about Jesus. And I thought in my Arab mentality, there must be something really terrible.

15:25.97
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

15:26.68
Ivan
They are trying to and take my attention so I don't see it in the Old Testament.

15:29.75
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

15:31.90
Ivan
So I participated in reading the Old Testament.

15:33.41
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

15:35.07
Ivan
And it happened also that while I was going to church, i was just getting you know I was just there for the evening service, listening to the sermons. chit-chatting with few people. and i was There was a course at that time which was called Christianity Explored.

15:49.26
Ivan
I just went on it. And remarkably, i after all that time when I completely was anti-anything to do with God, i I found Jesus.

16:00.50
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

16:03.36
Ivan
And I found Jesus in a sense that he answered all the all the questions that and all the issues that related to good and evil. and It was interesting, and I think this is also significant in my personality, and it has an implication for the way that I am now, is that I've always thought the idea of God is quite abstract. you know You never can get hold of God. People think about God in so many different ways. you You can say, do you believe in God? It's like everybody believes or doesn't believe, but nobody really knows God.

16:41.85
Ivan
So the fact that, for me, understanding God was solely because I wrestled with Jesus is such a foundational thing.

16:55.91
Ivan
You know, people come and say, well, I believe in God, and then, you know, they kind of get to know Jesus.

16:58.03
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

17:00.44
Ivan
But for me, the experience was totally getting to wrestle with Jesus, and therefore, I believe in God.

17:02.25
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

17:07.02
Jenn Chen
hmm

17:07.57
Ivan
And i I really think this is quite fundamental. And later on discovering, you know, through the Bible that obviously that's the way that God reveals Himself. All other understanding of God is untrue, unless you are actually coming through Jesus to meet the Father and the Spirit obviously.

17:26.22
Ivan
But that, it still remains a a a matter of part of my personality. I don't like using the word God without defining who God is.

17:36.23
Ivan
And it's always for me from the starting point and the

17:36.83
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

17:40.85
Ivan
viewpoint of of Christ. So yeah i think I think that's probably one of the most fundamental things and also actually I guess and that has an implication in the way that I explain things or I think about about the Bible is that discovering that you know Jesus is not just pops up in the New Testament that I've I actually was able to see throughout the Scriptures that His presence and is all about Him. And yeah, that's kind of been the the way that I've and um understood God, and I think I'm very, very thankful for that Christ christ-centered view.

18:34.66
reflexio
So when you came to know Jesus, um did life flip on its head? Did things totally change? It was a real gradual. So how how did that encounter turn into but a call and to serve him? And those things don't up oh necessarily follow.

18:53.98
reflexio
you know

18:55.26
Ivan
i I mean, i have people who know me, they know I'm not a, I'm a kind of black and white person. and I give myself fully to something if I believe in it and I completely, and so in a sense, you know as I said, that transformation from being anti anything to do with a spiritual being or existence of a God or something,

19:22.87
Ivan
becoming a follower of Jesus was Jesus was all concentrated in three months so so yeah I mean once once I've actually realized that yes I do trust in Jesus I believe in him the issue was that what do I do with him really because you know I lived a very pagan style life I've my family are quite liberal they wouldn't

19:42.39
Jenn Chen
e

19:49.63
Ivan
you know, generally people who come from my background would face maybe a bit of, well, they would face hardships, but that wasn't a concern. But all my friends were were atheist, you know, just the idea of how do I, what happens, you know, what do I do?

20:05.01
Jenn Chen
o

20:06.62
Ivan
But I felt it was a, it was on one occasion when I've taken the communion because before that I didn't take communion ah in church.

20:17.08
Ivan
But that day when I kind of realized that I do trust the Lord, I was like, felt that I need to, what can I do? It's the fact that how do I live my life now that I follow Jesus?

20:30.23
Jenn Chen
Hmm. Hmm.

20:31.80
Ivan
And I felt he just basically told me, you know, as long as you put your hand with me, I am with you and we'll work it out. And that is very what has happened really.

20:44.11
Ivan
It's kind of, been a journey of discovering who He is and understanding Scripture. You know, as i as you said, you know, I have no idea about anything about the Bible. You know, I've heard of Moses and Abraham and I laughed at Adam and Eve and all that stuff, but like I really didn't know anything. So when I used to read particularly the Old Testament and I i used to read like, you know, the stories from Genesis and Exodus, it was all new information to me.

21:13.62
Jenn Chen
me

21:13.44
Ivan
and I loved it. I think I found myself in many situations, like part of the people that were what I'm reading about.

21:18.59
Jenn Chen
Hmm. Hmm.

21:25.75
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

21:26.29
Ivan
I found I was like, for example, thinking about how can this God allow all these people who he rescued to to like betray him and insult him and all that stuff.

21:40.43
Ivan
If it was me, I said, I would kill them. So I would still turn the page and when they do something bad, you know, I would say, oh, now, now he's going to obliterate them. But then he wouldn't.

21:51.42
Ivan
And then then get um and then I would say, now is the time he's going to kill them.

21:53.75
Jenn Chen
Yeah.

21:55.39
Ivan
And it's like, no. And that when I realized that it is me, is's this is this is me. This is the way that the Lord has had patience and and love and care about me.

22:03.02
Jenn Chen
Yeah. Yeah.

22:06.33
Ivan
And yeah, so it was a ah sort of simple decision that I just take it, ah you know, step by step and and follow him.

22:07.65
Jenn Chen
Yeah.

22:17.25
Ivan
And it was quite an exciting time, the first few, you know, two, three years, just soaking in all the all the stuff that was new, getting, ah you know, asking all the basic questions that everybody asks.

22:24.46
Jenn Chen
Mmm.

22:32.79
Ivan
um getting annoyed by the people who couldn't answer some of the basic questions that I've had. and But then, you know, the Lord kind of put it on my heart to realize that my life before becoming a follower of Jesus had a meaning.

22:51.96
Ivan
You know, I come from a particular culture.

22:53.69
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

22:54.97
Ivan
I lived a certain life. I was an atheist.

22:56.77
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

22:57.74
Ivan
and I am Arab. half Arab half Armenian, you know, I come from a culture that Are in real desperate for for the gospel so it wasn't didn't take long time for me to experiment I would say and going to the places where most um fundamental Muslims would go and attack Christianity because it was a challenge for me to actually

23:03.09
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

23:23.06
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

23:24.70
Ivan
do kind of does what I believe stand any ground.

23:25.94
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

23:29.09
Ivan
So I used to go with a group called, you know, called High Park Corner Fellowship, Sneakers Corner a Christian Fellowship. yeah And I used to go there for a few years and I wasn't standing on a box or preaching, but I just would would talk to the people who were there and and yeah, and just try and

23:39.46
reflexio
Yeah.

23:51.95
Ivan
learn and it was a very informative years because i've I've become more involved in church I kind of left my secular work and started working within the local church, not the local church, the church I was part of and on one hand I was getting a very good and theological teaching from from the church itself and ah very sort of we had a very gifted theologian who

23:55.88
Jenn Chen
Hmm. Hmm.

24:22.15
Ivan
Yeah, I've worked with him and there was a course that we used to do every year. And I used to take that and experiment with it when I go to Speaker's Corner and find out what works and what doesn't work.

24:31.68
Jenn Chen
Mm.

24:33.13
Ivan
So something which was going into understanding was being practiced with people. And then I would say the other element was that I've had a real close group of and believers with me that we used to meet regularly and debate and talk, support each other, work out things.

24:52.60
Ivan
So so i I think those ah elements of the teaching getting to me, actually going out and trying out, experimenting and experiencing what it is, and then having a fellowship of people that were around me, helping me to and to understand and to voice all my concerns and doubts and questions as we all work together was a fundamental part of

25:17.94
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

25:19.78
Ivan
my early growth and discipleship.

25:20.42
Jenn Chen
Hmm. Hmm.

25:25.86
reflexio
So Yvonne, I met you in London during those years. um I think you were dating Debbie at that point. Gail introduced us briefly. But the time I spent time with you was in Cairo a few years later when you opened the door for me to meet all kinds of people. um

25:42.93
reflexio
without going through all the narrative, but it's in London to spending what, eight or 10 years in Cairo.

25:44.15
Ivan
you

25:48.50
reflexio
um Tell us about that period or maybe how you got there briefly and I, you know, Debbie and you've been married for 22

25:54.83
Ivan
Yeah, I got married, ah you know, I got married in 2002. So and my wife is English.

26:00.82
reflexio
years, wow.

26:01.89
Ivan
So she didn't have any experience with the with Arabs at all. I mean, she went on a short term mission for six months in Africa. So she had some cross cultural experience and she lived in a very cross cultural area in London.

26:17.25
Ivan
So she grew up it and in a very cross cultural world. But she did not have much relationships or

26:23.34
Jenn Chen
me

26:23.33
Ivan
contact with Arabs. So ah so we the year after we went to ah on ah on a trip and we visited Egypt and part of that trip also ah was her going with me to Iraq and that was like a very big thing for me as well because Saddam by 2003 was toppled, he was so it was gone.

26:45.02
Jenn Chen
Hmm. Hmm.

26:48.13
reflexio
deposed.

26:49.58
Ivan
So I went back to Iraq after 24 years. Actually, it was the first time going to an Arabic country after 24 years time.

26:53.08
Jenn Chen
Wow.

26:57.12
Ivan
So when I went there, we stayed there for a couple of months and we were working with an NGO there and came back to London. And we felt like we would like to go to to somewhere in the Arab world. We were thinking going to Iraq, so we were preparing to go there but because it wasn't really set up for teaching Arabic at that time. So we chose to go to Egypt and my wife would learn Arabic in Egypt and then maybe a year after we would go to Iraq. But basically we went to Egypt and then

27:29.95
Ivan
The situation got worse in Iraq, there were lots of kidnappings and beheadings and stuff, so we ended up staying in Egypt. And we'd stayed only three years, but it was, I think, one of the, again, the most important and places that shaped the way that I understood, I would say, the challenges and the situation that, believe us, from Muslim backgrounds face.

27:58.57
Ivan
because I was there engaged and part of a couple of fellowships and I really understood and experienced the hardships they go through.

28:13.99
Ivan
They obviously go through hardships with their families and with the society.

28:16.72
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

28:18.86
Ivan
And the government is not very ah helpful as well.

28:19.34
Jenn Chen
Hmm. Hmm.

28:24.53
Ivan
There is you know and people ah taken by but the secret police. But actually one of the most important things is the challenges and the hardships that have they faced within the church.

28:38.37
Ivan
And there are reasons. you know there's no I don't try to blame or anything, but it's just Being a believer from Muslim background in a country that has a local church or ah or a historical church, even if it's evangelical, is not it wasn't easy at that time because they face issues of security. The church is afraid that there are people coming to the church, so they have to change their name.

29:08.85
Ivan
There is no real discipleship, I think would happen because you are not yourself. You go to church once a week or you are with a bunch of people who don't know who you are and and what is your real story.

29:22.60
Ivan
So when do you where do you actually open up and where do you understand what it means to be your identity in Christ? If you are in one place, in one way with your family and society,

29:34.33
Jenn Chen
Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.

29:35.21
Ivan
in another place you are taken in a completely different way and it's not real and you know with challenges in terms of involvement in in if anybody has the gift of worship or leadership those things at that time were not easy and you know it's it's a complex matter but for me it was the time where I realized I've got to come across come along our brothers and sisters for from from Muslim backgrounds and just be a brother to them and just share with their suffering and just be a shoulder where I can rely on.

30:02.57
Jenn Chen
Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.

30:14.37
Ivan
And i that changed me. And when I left Egypt, um yeah, that kind of been on my heart and since since then.

30:24.12
Jenn Chen
Yeah.

30:25.66
Ivan
So yeah. I think Egypt was a very interesting period of my, of our lives. We went, um but yeah, we, ah two of my children's children were born there, oldest two.

30:38.02
Jenn Chen
yeah

30:40.44
Ivan
And then yeah, we had to come back for, and to to England for reasons outside of my control. So our time in Egypt was cut short.

30:48.93
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

30:50.74
Ivan
And that's when you, as you said, you, you came to my place and I was able

30:55.67
reflexio
yeah You left not long after I was there, I think.

30:56.57
Ivan
stupid yeah

30:59.59
reflexio
Yeah. know um When we were visiting there, you guys were dreaming up this idea of some kind of a Muslim-focused and alpha program, which has now i've long been a major project.

31:15.45
reflexio
Do you want to your time in England, how did it ah that all come about? And what what what's it about? I mean, I don't want us to you know do a big plug for it, but just why did you guys do it?

31:24.89
Ivan
Yeah.

31:26.26
reflexio
And yeah but yeah, how does it influence, I mean, how does you understand relating to Muslims shape the way it developed?

31:26.63
Ivan
Well,

31:33.22
Ivan
Mm. Well, I think for me personally, as I said, that I look back on my life and I thought, well, the experiences that I had before I followed Jesus must mean something. So I worked in the, as a producer and a, and a cameraman and a production. So I thought, well, I must do something with this. It's not that I've left it and never going to go back to it. So that was one thing. ah The other thing, as I said, being from a particular culture in Iraq, you know, I have, yeah,

32:04.38
Ivan
a certain advantage that I speak the language, I've, you know, I know the culture, even though I was an atheist, but you know, most of my friends were, ah you know, Muslim friends, atheists, anybody, you know, Christians, but from Iraq.

32:11.39
Jenn Chen
Mm.

32:20.06
Ivan
And the other element which came together was that I've, as I said, for me, this and idea of understanding everything about our faith that comes from ah Christ-centered perspective was very important.

32:36.48
Ivan
And when I say Christ-centered perspective, it's not just about Jesus. It's just I think understanding God as a Trinitarian being is very important because I found that people throughout my Christian

32:46.99
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

32:52.89
Ivan
discipleship don't really get it and particularly in the beginning people used to like when I used to ask well can someone explain the Trinity for me there the regular answer was it's not explainable you know and I just couldn't accept that and and I realized the problem was that we come to understand the Trinity from Trinity or to attempt to understand the father son and spirit ah from the wrong end so when you approach the God, from ah Christ's perspective, you immediately buy Jesus brought into the presence of the Father and you know all the gospel and the Old Testament as well.

33:29.26
Jenn Chen
e

33:31.73
Ivan
It shows that he is the He is the one who brings you to the presence of the Father.

33:34.46
reflexio
Mm hmm.

33:36.75
Ivan
You know, the Father is unseen, but Christ is the image, the visible image of the invisible God.

33:37.26
Jenn Chen
Hmm. Hmm.

33:42.29
Ivan
And then, you know, you kind of understand that only by the illumination and the presence of the Spirit that impacts your, ah your you know, helps you to grasp that.

33:42.90
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

33:52.72
Ivan
So not that was a very important part of my faith and seeing this dynamic of the relationship that God is essentially is relationship.

34:06.23
Ivan
and you know he has these attributes but that's for me comes as a secondary thing. The main thing is that God is a relationship, is a father, son and spirit and he shares his life of joy and and goodness to the creation.

34:16.75
Jenn Chen
Hmm. Hmm.

34:23.17
Ivan
So when we approach him like that things become exciting, things become

34:23.68
reflexio
Amen.

34:23.67
Jenn Chen
me

34:28.100
Ivan
clear So I wanted to convey that in ah in a way that really impacts people who come from Muslim backgrounds. Because as you know you know, most of the questions that our Muslim brothers and sisters ah have is to do with the Trinity or to do with the deity of Christ.

34:37.34
Jenn Chen
e

34:46.59
Ivan
So, you know, those things, when you approach it from this perspective, I found in my life and in the life of many other people get explained. So I wanted to do introduce this somehow.

34:56.67
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

34:56.75
Ivan
But by God's providence, I was introduced to a guy in Egypt, a a British guy who was

34:57.45
Jenn Chen
Mm-hmm.

35:04.87
Ivan
for years, praying about and creating an alpha-like video-based program with, and in mind, the Muslim audience.

35:07.57
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

35:13.31
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

35:15.45
Ivan
So I got introduced to him before I left Egypt, and then we started working together in 2007, and then ended up, both of us, coming back to the UK, and then a bigger team started coming in.

35:28.58
Ivan
And we work together to produce this what we call now something that is called al-Masera, which is like the word in Arabic for journey.

35:37.91
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

35:37.57
Ivan
And yeah, and it's basically and going chronologically, introducing the gospel and the person of Christ right from the first pages of the Bible.

35:46.25
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

35:49.65
Ivan
You know, you meet Him, you see Him, you... you so you you engage with him through the eyes or the scriptures that and that the prophets will take you. So we go through Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, and so on. So the first part of this resource is really looking through the lens of all these prophets, what their understanding of of the person and work of Christ is. So not that was produced and filmed in and and launched. And we've been amazed at the

36:23.100
Ivan
the impact that it had not just in terms of a resource in the hands of believers for sharing with Muslims but even within the wider church because we do training events and it was clear that and the way that the worldwide church

36:32.52
Jenn Chen
Hmm. Hmm.

36:42.45
Ivan
that understanding of the Old Testament, if there is any desire to understand it, is quite it's quite different from the way we were making it Christ-centered.

36:54.89
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

36:54.47
Ivan
So many people seem to really catch on this vision that, you know, if we want to explain the gospel,

37:03.77
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

37:03.40
Ivan
to our brothers and sisters from Muslim backgrounds, we cannot just come in and just say, you know, Jesus kind of John 3 16, you know, Jesus died on the cross and he saved you from your sins and you know, you have eternal life as wonderful that it is, but that just doesn't answer anything because we need to actually bring the foundations which are all in the Old Testament, you know, why there is sin, why there is

37:07.65
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

37:24.44
Jenn Chen
Mmm.

37:26.06
Ivan
and

37:26.66
Jenn Chen
Mmm.

37:27.27
Ivan
ah you know Why does there has to be death to atone for sins? How can God allow his you know you know his greatest prophet or obviously the himself, the son, to die on a cross? I mean, these are very important. What is and you know how what what happened in the Garden of Eden? you know People focus on like as if it's like you know they broke the rules of God and they were punished.

37:54.35
Ivan
and they were cut out of Eden. But actually, we as we look at it from a relational perspective, it was God, you know, entrusting humanity with everything and just wanting to give him, to love him back.

37:59.70
Jenn Chen
Mm.

38:05.94
Jenn Chen
Mm. Mm.

38:11.68
Ivan
and freely to do so. so we So he gave them the risk of like choosing, do they love him or not? So in essentially, you know the fall is a is a betrayal of the trust and the love that God has for. And then it's just a story on from there to our day. you know We're all we all turned out back on Jesus, really. And he has gone through all the stops to save us and to bring us into back to that relationship, to reconcile himself and to the Father, which is the aim of everything.

38:50.31
Ivan
you know so it's So that was the heart of it, and we're still and being blessed as it's been used and translated into into tens of languages.

39:01.78
Ivan
where I think we've got about 38 now. And we are in another

39:04.92
reflexio
Wow.

39:04.94
Jenn Chen
wow

39:06.56
Ivan
ah stage where we are designing a new resource which is focused on discipleship alone and we are going to go through the Book of Acts and we're creating this discipleship experience which is based on an app where you go through and through almost like a map of different cities based on the narrative and then you enter and you have a sort of an interactive way of as ah as a and as a group

39:23.60
Jenn Chen
Wow. Hmm.

39:34.32
Ivan
to engage with the message of the of acts which will highlight the main discipleship challenges that we as believers, ah new believers, we have to go through and hopefully that will be ready in a few years' time and it will be a blessing in the hands of the Church.

39:46.71
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

39:50.19
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

39:56.06
reflexio
I've asked all the questions, Jen. Is there something? I've got somewhere else I also want to go. But before I go there, something come to mind for you to probe into, Jen.

40:07.53
Jenn Chen
Well, I'm just am amazed at the grace of God in your life, Yvonne, and just your testimony is, yeah, just points.

40:15.44
Ivan
I'm amazed too.

40:17.34
Jenn Chen
Yeah, points to a God who loves us and pursues us. And um yeah, so I just, I'm just in awe of God's love and his care.

40:20.78
Ivan
yeah

40:30.17
Jenn Chen
Yeah, in spite of a really hard beginning. um I am struck also just the idea of a loss of citizenship in a country that you were born in and then just all the countries you had to pass through.

40:47.22
Jenn Chen
um And then eventually where you settled, but this idea of a heavenly citizenship that, um yeah.

40:50.64
Ivan
Amen. That is one of the fundamental things that I think our new resource will focus on, the unity and diversity.

40:59.89
Jenn Chen
Mm-hmm.

41:00.81
Ivan
And to me, to me, this is like I've, you know, obviously I come from Iraq, I have an Armenian kind of heritage. Then I lived in other Arabic countries.

41:11.84
Ivan
I've took on more or less the Czech sort of culture, learned the language and lived there.

41:17.16
Jenn Chen
Yeah. Yeah.

41:18.68
Ivan
And then I came to Britain.

41:20.63
Jenn Chen
Mm.

41:20.24
Ivan
had another culture. So I feel it's quite interesting because I kind of lost this idea of nationalism belonging to a nationality.

41:31.85
Jenn Chen
Yeah, yeah.

41:33.39
Ivan
I find it difficult when people are nationalistic.

41:35.55
Jenn Chen
Yes.

41:37.01
reflexio
And.

41:36.93
Ivan
I do understand patriotism. I do understand people valuing their their origin, whatever that is.

41:48.83
Ivan
But

41:49.51
Jenn Chen
Mm

41:50.11
Ivan
particularly as a Christian, I think the idea of what you just mentioned that we all brothers and sisters in belonging to a heavenly kingdom, ah citizens of heaven, was the most liberating thing.

41:52.79
Jenn Chen
-hmm. Mm-hmm. e

42:04.25
Ivan
And I and love that truth because for me, that diversity ah that we have in the body of Christ is a reflection of the being of God himself.

42:05.23
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

42:08.19
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

42:15.82
Jenn Chen
Yeah.

42:19.79
Jenn Chen
That's right.

42:19.68
Ivan
And I find attempts to marginalize or focus on particular, you know, to smaller kind of like, okay, let's get this group who are just to because they have similarities to be in disco, be it age, language, culture, whatever.

42:27.13
Jenn Chen
Hmm. Yeah.

42:37.09
Jenn Chen
hmm yeah hmm

42:40.21
Ivan
I find that difficult. I really feel like we are one family and the church really needs to remember that.

42:42.42
reflexio
Good morning.

42:47.73
Ivan
and

42:48.26
Jenn Chen
yes that's right hmm

42:48.29
Ivan
that we are a family. Families have young and old, have ah people of all sorts of interests. And we are meant to be one, ah that unity with us.

43:00.18
Ivan
Yes, there are challenges sometimes that we need to ah be understanding something in our own mother tongue. But I feel like particularly in the world today, you know when when the world is a small place, you know when you know there's so many refugees and people are displaced and all that,

43:13.34
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

43:17.84
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

43:18.47
Ivan
And it's good to be able to worship and to be part ah together.

43:25.41
Jenn Chen
Yes.

43:25.10
Ivan
so um So yeah, I'm an advocate for a church that is that within it as a multicultural element.

43:29.74
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

43:36.27
Ivan
And yes, sometimes, obviously, you know, if...

43:36.89
Jenn Chen
Yeah.

43:40.15
Ivan
If you need to be in a fellowship of people from the similar background, so if you are from a Muslim background or from a different culture or country, it's good to meet and wrestle through these things.

43:44.72
Jenn Chen
me Yeah.

43:51.35
Ivan
But to create a church that is solely for that, I think I find that difficult.

43:55.68
Jenn Chen
Mm-hmm.

43:57.06
Ivan
and I feel it's good to it's good to be all together. We learn from each other. We challenge each other.

44:02.52
Jenn Chen
We do. Yeah.

44:03.85
Ivan
And yeah, particularly in our day when when the world is really kind of, really, I mean, every every generation, the world is in a mess.

44:15.19
Ivan
But at this moment, I think there is a lot of things happening.

44:15.76
Jenn Chen
Yeah.

44:18.95
Ivan
And the church worldwide needs people from other cultures, be it from Africa or the world or Asia or Latin America to bring back ah some things that the West, in a sense, has lost.

44:20.68
Jenn Chen
Yes.

44:27.42
Jenn Chen
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

44:36.58
Ivan
and The West has helped a lot in the past. But I think at this moment, if we're talking about mission, the mission or that God has, and and on his heart, which the original missionary I see always, Jesus himself, you know, he's the one who became incarnate and came.

44:52.89
Jenn Chen
Yeah. Mmm.

44:54.65
Ivan
to the world and look upon flesh and you know across all the barriers and he calls us to be like them.

45:00.03
Jenn Chen
Mmm.

45:01.76
Ivan
That mission that is the world today is from all of the world to the rest of the world. It's no longer from one geographical location to another.

45:07.09
Jenn Chen
Yes.

45:07.66
reflexio
Mm hmm.

45:09.61
Jenn Chen
That's right. Yeah.

45:10.10
Ivan
and the So I feel like the world really needs that witness in the church.

45:13.91
Jenn Chen
Mmm.

45:14.31
Ivan
It really needs to see how we all from different places, we are truly united in one spirit and we are brothers and sisters in Christ despite all the challenges that that brings.

45:29.34
Jenn Chen
Yeah. Well, Amen to that.

45:31.99
reflexio
Yvonne, as I hear your story fresh um and reflect on my visits with you in Lebanon, where you were involved with countless refugees, um it sort of feels like full circle. You went through that whole experience of being a refugee and then you spent years befriending and loving refugees.

45:50.83
reflexio
Can you tell me about what was that like and and how did that your background impact the way you you see this kind of ministry happening in Lebanon? and I mean, it's it's just fascinating.

45:58.79
Ivan
Yeah.

46:02.11
Jenn Chen
Na-na-na.

46:02.39
reflexio
It's like full circle. You come back to the same life you had, but it's not your life, it's someone else's.

46:07.21
Jenn Chen
Na-na-na.

46:07.84
reflexio
Interesting.

46:08.63
Ivan
Yeah, it's it's a real privilege. It's a real privilege to be understanding where people come from.

46:13.03
Jenn Chen
Na-na-na.

46:16.30
Ivan
I think that is one area. I mean, I always felt the intruder into the church. i i I don't belong, I'm not of the same cloth if you want to say that, you know, I came and I still see myself not conformed to the ways that church functions.

46:35.95
Ivan
So not just church organizations and missions, theological seminary schools, you know, all this for me is like, it's quite alien, but I do understand

46:44.17
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

46:48.74
Ivan
that the church is a family and I belong to a church and it sayst has become an institution. So and that's why I feel like the family element, the the picture of the church being the bride of Christ, being the body, all these things need to be reintroduced to all believers who have maybe just focused on church being a once in a week once a week you go to a place

46:59.50
Jenn Chen
Yeah. Hmm.

47:18.29
Ivan
and visit and that that sort of thing does help when people come from outside the church because I kind of I kind of have a as you know what you say I know what they're feeling it so being in Lebanon and witnessing the Lord doing some really unbelievable

47:18.95
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

47:37.05
Jenn Chen
me

47:47.27
Ivan
things with Muslim people in the last kind of 10, 15 years. You know, people who prayed for years about, you know, people from Muslim heritage to come and follow Jesus.

48:00.70
Ivan
I've seen it the Lord doing amazing work, in at least in Lebanon.

48:04.60
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

48:04.59
Ivan
Lebanon is a very unique place because it's a it's a free place, it's a messed up place, it's a contradictory place, but the circumstances that are in Lebanon do not repeat itself in other places in the world because it is free to go to church, people from whatever background you are.

48:11.62
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

48:23.42
Ivan
um And particularly in Syrians, you know, when they came to Lebanon, they found that again, miraculously, that the Lebanese Christian Church was extending an arm and sort of welcoming them despite of the animosity and the hatred that exists there because of the civil war and all that stuff. But i did I do feel that the Lord has kind of given us a window into how Christian churches, you know, within Christian upbringing

48:59.59
Ivan
could really start understanding how their calling is not about preserving and just bringing other Christian background people in, but actually ah allowing the transformation within itself to and so that more people can come in which don't belong to the church culture. I mean it's a challenge, it's ongoing, there's always people who are difficult but I think in Lebanon I could witness that there's been a remarkable and example of that. Where there are many challenges, I mean refugees have needs, refugees have different motives to wherever they are to come to church. Sometimes people just come in for

49:45.49
Ivan
to get a hand out of something. And that is a challenge. And not always the church is able to find the best way how to deal with that, you know, how to offer unconditional love and support to people without um without any gain and really letting people come in because they're really interested in Christ.

50:11.85
Ivan
there are challenges. But overall, I think it's an it's a we are learning and God has been very gracious to to give us that window and that picture of what's happened in Lebanon.

50:20.82
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

50:24.92
Ivan
I don't know how long it's going to last, if it's going to last so ah within the current ah environment. and But many people also left you know Lebanon, like particularly Syrians and Iraqis and others.

50:39.59
Ivan
So again, seeing hundreds of thousands of people, you know literally over a million people, but Syrians went into Germany, not just from Lebanon, but from other places.

50:43.57
Jenn Chen
Yeah.

50:50.73
Ivan
But personally, knowing people who made those dangerous journeys by boat, some of them have amazingly done well and and in the in the West.

51:02.53
Ivan
And the joy of seeing those who have become followers of Jesus in Lebanon ah being able to continue in the West and them themselves being called to maybe impact the and be part of the mission that God has in the West for people. you know i think I think all that sort of mishmash of people from different places coming, you know It's only I think is good for the gospel, although some people might disagree with that.

51:32.96
Ivan
But I feel i feel that the church is by God's God deliberately shaking things.

51:44.75
Ivan
The church is changing. So many people like through our work that

51:47.73
Jenn Chen
e

51:52.70
Ivan
Maseer have been used in many churches in Holland and Germany and in Scandinavia and other places in the UK. Seeing how the new believers from all these cultures do make a difference and bring a different flavor and excitement into maybe sleepy churches or churches that have older generations or, you know,

52:19.17
Ivan
it's It's just joyful to see that happen. But that's again a challenge because, you know, there's language barriers, political issues.

52:25.02
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

52:26.67
Ivan
and And the world will always try to show that refugees are there just to come to take and not give.

52:27.62
Jenn Chen
Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.

52:36.58
Ivan
But I think those who are followers of Jesus have a lot to give. And yeah, I guess if you say, you know, I'm being a refugee, I don't know how much I was able to give, but I

52:41.19
Jenn Chen
me too

52:48.69
Ivan
I do think there are examples of people um who have made a big difference in the world because they were misdisplaced, they were refugees. And yeah, so it's all good to me. It's all positive, despite all the craziness that is going on in the world.

53:14.50
reflexio
So as we wind down here, any reflection question, Jen?

53:16.99
Jenn Chen
Hmm. Hmm.

53:20.79
reflexio
or any further comment you want to make, Yvonne, just as you think of an audience of people in different parts of the world, are there some sort of message from the Middle East situation that can encourage us in other parts of the world, places like China or Yemen or Nigeria in the north of Nigeria, I've got 30 students in my class of Nigeria right now.

53:40.84
Jenn Chen
Mm hmm.

53:45.22
reflexio
And it's it's very, very difficult with the persecution they're experiencing. Just any final thoughts, wisdom for us?

53:57.18
Ivan
it's It's so difficult to imagine the the pain and the suffering that is going on.

54:06.15
reflexio
Yeah.

54:06.03
Ivan
I mean, we live these days in particularly with what's happening in Gaza and Israel, and it's a very close thing to so my heart.

54:12.100
reflexio
yeah

54:17.34
Ivan
Without going into it, I just find it's very difficult when when people see things from a very political lens or from a particular interpretation of scripture ah with what's going on and forget that people are people.

54:28.76
Jenn Chen
Yeah. Absolutely. Mmm.

54:37.40
Ivan
Jesus loves everyone.

54:38.30
reflexio
Yeah. Yeah.

54:39.29
Ivan
Whatever nationality or ethnicity or background, you know,

54:44.24
Jenn Chen
Mmm.

54:46.42
Ivan
For me, again, as I talk about unity and diversity, the principle of that, very you know that scripture that you know when Christ's death on the cross has lifted all the barriers and brought us all Jew and Gentile together as one body.

55:01.84
Ivan
So for me, there is no difference really.

55:03.97
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

55:04.59
Ivan
We're all one in Christ.

55:07.29
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

55:06.89
Ivan
So to maintain a division of some sort and a but perspective that that is

55:13.15
Jenn Chen
Yeah.

55:13.55
Ivan
that shakes this is hard for me but you know we gotta trust that the Lord is in control and i've I've heard just that last week again like from Northern Nigeria of a pastor being kidnapped with his daughter and a ransom being asked it's just ongoing things like this but what I've been amazed at like um learning because we're just studying the book of Acts deeply

55:22.14
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

55:42.42
Ivan
You know, when Peter and John were released in Acts 5, and they come back to the house where all the believers are, it is remarkable when you read their prayers.

55:55.33
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

55:55.73
Ivan
They didn't ask, I mean, it's it's easy for us to say that, but when you when you read the prayers in Acts 5, you see what they're asking is that they will be faithful in the midst of persecution.

56:07.35
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

56:09.53
Ivan
and ask that they will stand firm and proclaim the gospel.

56:10.25
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

56:13.93
Ivan
they There is no hint of, Lord, please stop persecution. It's very hard, but and that's what I've been challenged on. And it's like, it just impacts also the way I pray, because I always pray for people, for they not praise persecution, they're not suffering and all that, and I don't want people to pray for that.

56:22.60
Jenn Chen
Yeah.

56:31.61
Ivan
But I am challenged greatly, again, as I read, to know that, and I always known that, You know, the church to make an impact historically has been with the blood of the martyrs.

56:47.09
Ivan
So I think we're all called in whatever circumstances to be standing with our with our with the saints before us to to be faithful to Christ in the midst of all this outbreak.

56:50.84
Jenn Chen
Hmm. Hmm.

57:04.41
Ivan
And I guess We who are in places which we do not experience the intensity of persecution, we need to find a way to support and to be there for others who are.

57:16.20
Jenn Chen
Yeah.

57:18.72
Ivan
And in what way and shape that takes, I don't know.

57:24.57
Jenn Chen
oh

57:24.83
Ivan
I think at least we need to be aware that we need to pray and And maybe the best way to honor our brothers and sisters who are going through a horrible circumstances is when when our circumstances are hard on us that we would stand firm in our ah location.

57:48.92
Jenn Chen
Yes. Yes. yeah e yeah

57:50.23
Ivan
It's easy to say because the challenges that we have in the places which are so-called peaceful are different. they have other things that we but I think we need to all stand firm and and just proclaim and live out actually proclamation is for me living out in God there is no words without action you know when God says let there be light there is light you know there is no just oh let there be light so we it's always words and actions go together so it is a challenge for me because I obviously like everyone else fails to live up

58:06.90
Jenn Chen
Yeah.

58:20.28
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

58:21.67
reflexio
Mm.

58:25.34
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

58:28.86
Ivan
when things go hard. I think we need to remind ourselves for the sake of our brothers and sisters who are giving their lives, for the joy of participating in the relationship and understanding Christ deep through our own hardships, we need to remind ourselves daily that we need to be with them.

58:51.62
reflexio
Thank you, Yvonne.

58:52.98
Jenn Chen
It's a good word.

58:54.59
reflexio
Yes.

58:55.09
Jenn Chen
Thank you. Yeah.

58:57.34
reflexio
Well, this has been a very intriguing, moving conversation. And it's nice to piece together pieces. I've heard these stories, some of them, but do you hear them all at once and just get the picture of your God's grace in your life and through you in the way he's blessing so many other people?

59:11.80
Jenn Chen
Yeah.

59:16.46
reflexio
It's just so encouraging.

59:16.48
Ivan
Thank you.

59:18.72
Jenn Chen
yeah

59:19.30
Ivan
Well, it's been a privilege to to be to take part in this.

59:19.96
reflexio
so

59:22.96
Ivan
i hope I hope many other people who you will interview will also so bring a different perspective and enrich us all as we as we go on our day-to-day journey with walking with Jesus in this life until we see Him.

59:40.38
Jenn Chen
Yes. Yes.

59:42.69
reflexio
Amen.

59:44.38
Jenn Chen
So good.

59:44.69
reflexio
Well, I'm going to stop us then. Thank you.

59:47.56
Jenn Chen
Thank you, Yvonne.

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