Snake Temple becomes Dynamic Church in Kolkata

Don [00:00:01]:
Welcome back to the Reflexio Podcast. I'm your host, Don Little. In this episode, we're going to have a conversation with Partha Das Gupta, who's from Kolkata in northeast India. I had the privilege of meeting Partha in Nairobi, Kenya in September last year and really connected with him and found his story remarkable. And we did a podcast interview then, but unfortunately there was some technical difficulties with the recording and it really wasn't usable. So I've set up with him time now to have a further conversation with him. I'm sure you're going to enjoy this, hearing the story of this high-caste Hindu and his whole family who encounter Christ in quite remarkable, miraculous ways, comes to faith, ends up pastoring a church that he and with his family started that has Hindus and Muslims in the church, and now he's actually leading and training leaders who are doing house church planting among Hindus and Muslims in the greater Kolkata area. He's also involved with debates with Muslims. He's held a very prominent high-profile debate with a Muslim sheikh. Quite a remarkable story of this young man who is faithfully serving and God is using. I'm sure you're going to enjoy this conversation as I will as well.

So welcome, Partha, to the Reflexio Podcast. Can you just introduce yourself for our guests? Tell us a little about who you are, where you are.

Partha Dasgupta [00:01:34]:
Thank you so much, Don, for you invite me. And I am Partha Dasgupta from India. I stay in west side of India. That's called West Bengal. And the city is Kolkata. And I stay with my family, my parents. And my uncle. We have a joint family and we live together.

Don [00:02:04]:
Okay, um, can you briefly just say what kind of ministry you're involved with and then we'll get to your story?

Partha [00:02:12]:
Okay, okay. And in— I actually appointed in my church is a pastor and also I am an evangelist and doing ministry among the Muslim and Hindu and Catholic. Now you working in— yes, yes, we have also church among the Catholic people, also the Muslim people, and majority church we have in the Hindu people. So we have maximum major Hindu convert people in our church.

Don [00:02:46]:
We are working Okay, so when we were together in Kenya last year, we interviewed, we recorded this interview before, I already explained that to them, but you told me your story of how God led you and your family to Christ. Can you just tell us some of that story? I'd love to hear God's work in your life.

Partha [00:03:11]:
Yeah, I love to speak because there's a very good testimony. And I am not a Christian family. I am from a Hindu Brahmin. Brahmin means priest family. My family is very much ritualistic. And we have many temple in my house also. And we worship many gods. And my grandfather is a very good priest and he just speak in the Sanskrit language. And he doing all the, we call the mantra. Mantra, mean they just worship their god in their books. And I also doing the same with my grandfather. But what happen, in my family there's 3 people die. 3 people die. Yes, and my grandfather, and he die. He has jaundice and many doctors come and many witchcrafters come. We go to many temple but he not healed. Then my one uncle, he also the cancer. That time we go visit 50 temple, 5-0, 50 temple in our area. Yes, and we call the many astrologer and many guru and saint in my family. And they came and when they came, they just take everything, gold and silver, and they just tell, "Your uncle be healed." But what happen? My uncle no more that time. He died too. Another uncle, he die the high fever. And that time we think we worship many gods. We fasting, we giving gold and silver, we calling the saint, Hindu saint, and we wash their feet and drink the water.

Don [00:05:15]:
You know. Special water, powerful water.

Partha [00:05:18]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, because they believe they are like a god. Okay. But nothing happen. But that time we not leave our faith.. But there is something is missing. Why we do such a things? There is a God, I don't know, because in Hindu people they believe many gods. So we worship different, different god. Because when we have sick, we go to another god. When we need to knowledge, we go to another god. But there is no God help us. That time one missionary, Even though the missionary came in our place and our place there is no one Christian, that is full of Hindu and some Muslim, no Christian. All the place is idol and idol and temple, no church. Yes, church is so much far.

Don [00:06:21]:
You remember I visited India when I was young and I been in places like that. It's very intensely Hindu.

Partha [00:06:29]:
Wow. Because in India there's many language, many culture, and many gods also. So that time in my family visit, my auntie, my aunt, she visit a church because one missionary come and He, sorry, a lady missionary, she spoke about Jesus Christ. And that time, I am very little that time. But my auntie going to church and ask, "Lord, we have no food. We worship many god. If you give us some food, then I can understand you have, you can give." And that is the miracles happen in my house. There is no egg. Nothing, but one man outside, outside a man he came and he give some food. And then my grandmother is shocked, "How it's possible?" Then my aunt says, "Mother, you just believe." Because my another uncle and he also have very lots of problem, problem of lungs problem and breathing problem and doctor said, he also die. Then my grandma said, if Jesus healed him, then I believe. And then the missionary come and praying, and my uncle totally healed.

Don [00:07:54]:
And that time, instant, was that like an instant healing, or was it one month?

Partha [00:07:59]:
One month, yes. And they totally healed. But this, um, problem in my uncle from the childhood No doctor, no medicine, and that time we also very poor because we have nothing. We have no money, we have nothing. So very, because you know our situation, 3 people die and those who are earning, and India that time, you know also India is a third world country and it's a very, very problem to us. At that time when they are coming and praying, God is working and that my uncle is healed and that is a turning point of my grandma because she is very ritualistic woman.

Don [00:08:49]:
Yes, very devout Hindu.

Partha [00:08:51]:
Yes, very devout Hindu. She just fast every 2 days and 3 days later, every almost and she just wake up morning and read the Bhagavad Gita. And the Ramayana every early morning, 4 and 5 o'clock, and whole day he just read the, means, the other rituals book and also doing their own work. But that lady, my grandma, and she said, "We worship many god, no one help us." But I don't know because my grandma think that Jesus is a Christian God. And the Christian people eat the cow and the pig because we worship the cow. Hindu people, the Christian is not good. They eat our gods and they are very bad. But they have changed their mind because when Jesus healed, because 3 people die, one family, no one is earning. We are very pro poor that time. But when God healed my uncle, this is eye-opening. And later and later, we just removed all the idols in my family.

Don [00:10:10]:
So your grandmother persuaded the rest of the family to believe or just to get rid of the idols?

Partha [00:10:17]:
No, yes, just get rid of idols, but not family. All family believed that time. Okay. "There is one my uncle and he is very strict and he is very persecuting us and he say don't go to church, don't nothing." Means he just want to stop everything. But there is a problem, he have a heart problem that time and doctor said, "You need the open heart surgery." And he just very confusing and crying and came to the church. And tell, "Please pray for me." That time he is a very dangerous man. He not like Christianity. He arranged money for the idol in various clubs in our area. So that time he came and we are praying and it is the second miracles. He was healed too. He was totally healed and he left. And my whole family came to Christ. And there's one thing, you know, in my house now there is a church, but there is a temple, and we call the temple is Snake Temple. You know, there's a— our god is snake in Hinduism. They believe snake god. And this temple, when my family built, second day automatic fall down. No one destroy. It is automatic destroying. Just fall down.

Don [00:11:47]:
And it fell down every time.

Partha [00:11:49]:
Yes, fall down. And this is how it's possible. Then the 25 years later, now there is a church. This God grace who loves us.

Don [00:12:03]:
Wow. So how old were you when your family came to Jesus?

Partha [00:12:08]:
I think that time I, I am not remember, but maybe 8 to 10.

Don [00:12:16]:
Okay. So after that, your family became Christian?

Partha [00:12:20]:
Yes, my family came.

Don [00:12:23]:
How about your own faith? Did you, did you press on as a Christian, or did you have the typical teenage struggles with not quite sure about what you believe?

Partha [00:12:33]:
No. Yeah, it is very tough for me because When I came to Christ, I go to the Sunday school with my family and they give the many story. But when I am much younger and there is something I have to start believe, means in my heart I think I became like an atheist because I don't believe that time that Jesus is a God or everything. Just I believe that is totally wrong. And because why, you know, in our area there's a very few Christian is there, very few Christian that time. So I go to the church, but in that time in the church there's no like a good teachings that time. In our age. Not good teachings and not teenagers training. They just go to like rituals. We go to like rituals, going to church and come back. There's nothing happen. And that time I have to go church because of the girls. Okay, I love girls. So that's why I love. So because I know and I think that is a joke people When they are praying, they think they told us we saw the Jesus, we saw the light, and that is a fake. You doing the drama because I am praying many times, I can't see anything. I can't see Jesus, I can't see light. So that time I many arguing, I question, I question in my pastor, if the Jesus come from heaven, why Mary have a labor pain? You just give me the reason. Because he is not come the natural, why she in pain and that the pastor that many question and he can't give any answer and he said don't allow him to the church.

Don [00:14:34]:
He just told me that you're asking too many questions, don't come to church.

Partha [00:14:37]:
Don't allow. That's sad. There's one thing happened and that time, you know, Very struggling life that time we have. Because we believe in Jesus, one side our, means my father's family, some people they don't came in Jesus. My mother's family, all people came to Jesus. And we are grown up very mixed family. One side they are doing all the Hindu rituals. Another side they are doing the Christianity and I am in middle. So then it is a very problem. Yes, very problem. Because my father's side people say don't go to there and my mother's side people go to don't go to there. I am very much confused who is real God and who is truth. But after there's one things happen in my short vision, okay. And that is actually change my life. And because at that time I read Bible, I start to read Bible and pray, but nothing happened. And I just totally struggling. I have many doubts from the— because we have read many scientific question and we have no answer. So that's why the many doubt come in my mind that time and no one is explaining that time. And also many girls is there, there's some temptation also there, doubt there. There's no teaching, no training, only the rituals thing happening and my faith is go to back. But one time is, yes, that Jesus And He give me the vision and I just remember the morning I going to church for the praying. Okay. And there's a one thing is happening why I am going to praying. Last one month or six months ago, some people called us for, there's a woman.. And he, she, I think age is 16 years, 15 or 16, but she have a demon possessed. Okay. And my friend asked, because my friend know I'm going to church and that's why he said me, Partha, please you come and pray. And I am, I not believe anything. I am going to the church and I also very much fear demons. "Oh." But he said me, "Please you come. My wife have a very big problem." Then I said, "Okay." When I visit his house, this woman one eyes became totally red. And when I see the eyes, my heart come out from my body. I know, "Oh my God, where I am coming?" And this lady— Yes. 'You come, no God can touch me. No God can. I am God.' And this demon is very dangerous. And that time I have no knowledge about Bible, many. I just read some, I have no knowledge, nothing. And there's many pastor came for the praying, but she is not healed. Yes. Okay, then I am saying, Many big pastors came from the church. They are praying, nothing happened. And me not believe in Bible and I don't go many time. Also I miss the church and not read the Bible. How God use me? But that time me and my brother, 6 friends, visit and praying 6 hours. And it is miracles. 6 hours we are praying. It is miracle. The lady became totally healed.

Don [00:18:44]:
So the demon was cast out?

Partha [00:18:46]:
Demon is cast out. And you know, this demon, like his body, like a folding. And I see first time because I watch in movie, a Hollywood movie, I see this like a things. And this is I see in my own eyes.

Don [00:19:05]:
And so this is— here you saw God saved this woman, delivered her, but you didn't believe. Yes, you prayed in desperation.

Partha [00:19:16]:
Yes, and this is very touch for me. That time I said, Lord, I am very much sin against you. I am not obeying you. I not read Bible every day. I am doing many mistake. I go church for the girls, but you listen my prayer. And that time I understand what is grace. That time I understand this grace is not our work, not our effort, what we know, what we do. That time I understand what is called grace. And I believe, Lord, now I understand your grace. I read Bible, I listen preaching many things. But nothing happened. Now I can see your grace in my own eyes and I surrender myself. That day I just decided.

Don [00:20:09]:
The day after the deliverance? Yes. And then you said the next day or something you had a vision of Jesus.

Partha [00:20:17]:
Do you want to explain that? Yes, I also said, but that day I just In my heart I tell God, I not speak anyone, but in my heart I tell God, God, I am very much sinner, you hear my prayer. So now my life I give you and I work for you. Please forgive all my sin and That day changed my life and I start to praying every day. And then I am morning coming in the church and I am praying and that time God give me vision why He sent me in this earth. Why means what is my actually calling? There's many ministries there and then what is my specific calling? And I saw when I am praying. And that time, last 2 and 3 months, I see many dreams. I saw many dreams. Okay, God is talk to me through the dreams, and the dreams is very much accurate. But you know, our mind is very dangerous, our dreams come what we think. That's why the dreams are coming. Okay, many logical things is coming. But that is not my dream, just I am go and kneel down and start to pray. And I see there's a hand came from the heaven and I see my body, my spirit come out from my body and go to the hand and hand is going very up. There's no sun, no moon, no star, nothing, only empty. And I see, I saw that time very much fire and people, there were one people, two people actually I saw. They very close to fire, very close to fire. They have one man, he cannot walk, he have a stick with hand and just go very slow. And one, he have a handkerchief and close his eyes from the handkerchief. And very close to the fire. Then I actually not understand because last 10 and 15 years I can't see anything. I go to Sunday school, I praying and teenagers, I not see anything, any dreams, anything, any vision. I don't know what is actually vision also. I just read only Bible. But that time I don't know what, I just shocked. What is this? Then a big sound come, you know, who is this? I don't know, I don't know. 'Who is this?' Then the guard said, 'I said, Lord, he is a blind man.' God said, 'No, he is not blind. He can see everything, but he closed his eyes from the handkerchief because he don't want to see me. He don't want to obey me.' And guard said, 'Lord, this man can't work, and he, I think, have a leg problem. I don't know what's happened.' He cannot walk. God said, "No, my son, he have a good and healthy man." But he says, "The God's way is very tough and we cannot walk his way. So that's why I go in my own path." Then a voice come that in vision, "Go and tell them fire is waiting for them." Then I saw my spirit come in my body and that day my mission start. God is working, I working among the youths, among the young and the evangelism. And God, I just shocked how people came to Christ. I have no knowledge, I just simple share about Jesus, they came to Christ.

Don [00:24:15]:
So after this vision and your commitment, God started to use you Yes, many people, many people, many people.

Partha [00:24:26]:
And 99.9% people came from the Hindu tough ground.

Don [00:24:29]:
And the Muslim, they came— almost all of them were Hindu converts.

Partha [00:24:35]:
Yes, Hindu and Muslim converts is there. And now many Catholic also convert. 15 Catholic people, they convert, they came to Christ.

Don [00:24:46]:
So that was 20 years ago, 15 years ago? How long did this start?

Partha [00:24:52]:
How long ago? It is 15 years ago, 17 years ago.

Don [00:25:00]:
So you were 18 or 19 when this happened?

Partha [00:25:02]:
Yes, yes. Maybe at that time. Now I am 37. I think that time is I, my age is 20.

Don [00:25:11]:
20. Yes.

Partha [00:25:11]:
20.

Don [00:25:11]:
And have you been in ministry continuously since that time, or is it— have you had a period of doing some studies and training? How— tell me a little bit about that journey from being an evangelist to now being a pastor.

Partha [00:25:28]:
Uh, yes, and that time, you know, and that time I just going some Bible course, okay. In our area, there is a 9-month Bible course. There is one pastor, his name is Dr. Vivekananda Mukhopadhyay, and he give me some teaching of the Christology. Okay, okay, and some thing I learning. That time means I am hungry for learning. Because it is, I know one thing, I learn every day from God. Also men, those who are means God sent me for my life and I going to some Bible course but I'm not read any Bible theology college. Now I am study for one theological college for Master's in Divinity but this is my also my just working in first year, not I'm complete now. But I have going to many Bible course. And many, like a Word of Life. And you know, there's one Sweden, his name Dr. Ulf Ekman. His ministry came from, I think, Sweden to India, and he gave the course from 9 months, the Word of Life, very good course. And some course I'm doing.

Don [00:26:52]:
Yes. So, um, when you were profoundly converted and you started sharing with people, people came to faith. Um, there was already a church in your house or this came later?

Partha [00:27:07]:
No, uh, where I am, your property. Yes, yeah, in my property there's a— in, in one of my uncle— uncle means my, uh, what's called not my own uncle, my mother's sister's husband. Okay, and he came to Jesus, and that time he also came our house. And you know, there's some missionary from YM, YM, you did the mission. Okay, yeah, yes, YM. They came in our area, and they first, they are the missionary first, two lady share the good news in our area. So in my family, there's a house church, okay? They all people are together and praying and worshiping, but that time there's no building, right?

Don [00:28:03]:
Okay. And so, uh, you don't have to tell the whole story, but eventually you— they built a building, a building in the place where they previously tried to build a temple and it keeps falling down.

Partha [00:28:19]:
So now, yes, there's a good testimony, and I'm just telling very shortly. That time we have no place for church, okay? And that time means our previous pastors who is now left from church, and I am now in church. And all the 12 church and also many church I have founding. But main thing is now we move many things because we have got to rent for our church and we have no building, no land. That time my grandma, she said, "You use this land." Okay. No one is expect because this land is very costly.. Okay, and also my uncle think for a building for their own house and with their children, many things he just thinking. But my grandma says, "Don't go to here and there, I give you this land for the church." And you know, then that, but we have no fund from the church because in That time we actually have no sponsor because all are the new people. No, because no people also give also the tithe also because they are very new believers. Yeah, yeah, new believers, they don't know actually. Praise God, that time there's one mission called Sophia's and Heart, okay, and with the Joyce Meyer Ministry, okay. They came India 2014, Joyce Meyer came India for the meeting. And that time this Sophia's Heart, he, I think this foundation helped two church for the building and one is for our church. Okay. Yes, Joyce Meyer come and praying for our church and we just make a building, not very big, but in there 100 people can stay praying for this building. And now there's more than 450 Hindu people baptized from this place. And they're in other churches. Yes, and this is main church, and then we have to move Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and we move our varieties place means on Kolkata, outside of Kolkata, and we are main focusing that time I am evangelism. I don't know actually church planting, but automatic church planting happening. I don't know strategy because I am no one teach me. Okay, what is the strategy of church? CPM or many things. But I just preach the gospel with my friend. All my friend also came to Jesus and we go and just praying and preaching and the church is automatic start. Okay, people came to Christ. Now I am know the strategy, but that time I know I see the real work of Holy Spirit. We have no knowledge, nothing. But God is doing working and the churches now, I just remember one, that is our the second church in my home to 20-30 kilometers far from my home. And one friend came to Christ and I also, and I give some testimony and some teachings. And he said me, brother, let's come my house and we start fellowship. And okay, that time 4 and 5, no, 2 people come, only 2. Okay, I have no problem. Then he call his friend, 3 and 4 young friend came. And we go to, not Sunday, Monday evening. And we go to every Monday. I go and visit and preach and friendship and fellowship. Now God is working and now there is a church and more than 40 people baptized here from there.

Don [00:32:52]:
Wow, wow. So God has led you, you are now pastoring this church which has room for 100, but there has been many people baptized. Yes. You said you didn't know anything about strategy, but now you understand more. So can you describe the kinds of outreach you're doing? You told me before that you're working with Hindus and Muslims, and your own church has Hindus and Muslims in it. I mean, former Hindu and Muslims and believers. Yes. Can you tell me a little bit about how you're— the teams you're working with and what your strategy looks like now?

Partha [00:33:30]:
Yes, there's one thing we have to start. When I have some friend, means I share the gospel and they came to Christ, and we start some teachings class, okay? Because that time I also learned something from many places, also the training also, and I give the training and give the encouraging to come with me because I can alone, I can do anything. If we have a team, then we can work because we know in our place there is no Christian and the Christian is all the rituals Christian like a very British, like a British time they just established the church and they are the very rituals. They don't go for the preaching. Outreach, nothing doing. So that time in my heart, God told me, go for the Muslim people. No one called me for working Muslim people because my pastor, yes, my pastor, and he don't like the Muslim. He said, don't go to the Muslim, they are very dangerous. We working only for the Hindu people. Muslim people, they have a weapon, gun. You preaching, they kill you. We don't go for— we preaching only Hindu. But I don't know why, in my heart no one tell me doing the Muslim. I don't know what is the Muslim ministry. Because in our area that time and now also there's no Muslim church, only in our area God give us this Muslim community. And I go to the Muslim market and then buy a Quran and I read whole Quran and I just mark everything what I am learning.

Don [00:35:29]:
And I assume you had an English Quran or in Bengali?

Partha [00:35:33]:
Yes, Bengali Quran. Bengali, yeah. And I have to start and me and my friend going to I preach a Muslim family and that family is a Muslim, you know, the witchcraft. They are doing many things. Many people come, Muslim people come for healing and many things. And we start this family, go and share the gospel. But there's a very good man, he is no violent, very peaceful because this man His wife died last 2 and 3 years ago. That's why he's very much, uh, means crying because his wife died in the fire. Some, so, but he doing his own work, witchcrafting many things, uh, means he read the Quran Surah Fatiha, you know, the first chapter of Quran, and many people come, he just breathes his own breath and give the water. But that time, I just remember this day, I am alone in my house and God told me, go. I am just clear understanding, a voice came in my mind, go this house. Then I am said, God, I am not alone. I am now alone, my friend is not here. I am going another day. Then God said, no, you just go now. Gone down. Yes, I'm just take my Quran and Bible and go. And when I go, I see the, uh, 2 and 3 people coming, their family, and they're doing— because one, one boy is fall down from the, I think, tree, and he have a problem in neck, and the boys can move his neck. And this Muslim witchcrapper, he read the Quran, Surah chapter 1. Surah Fatihah, Alhamdulillah Rabbil Alamin, Ar-Rahman Ar-Rahim, Malik Ya Midin. He just raised everything and I just watching, oh Lord, why I am coming? I waste my time. God said, just wait and watch. Okay, Lord. He doing everything but there no healing. Then God tell me, now you spoke. Yeah, you speak. Yes. Then I said, "Sister, can I pray for your son?" And I call in my Bengali language, "Dua, dua." Okay, you know, then I said, "I pray to Hazrat Isa (AS)." You know the Hazrat Isa (AS). She said, "Yes, I know, yes, Hazrat Isa (AS)." He can heal your son.

Don [00:38:18]:
Just give me— Can you translate that? I know Arabic, but not every viewer does.

Partha [00:38:25]:
Yes, yes, yes. Then what does that mean? The Hazrat means the saint. Okay. Isa means Jesus. Al-Masih is the Messiah. Right.

Don [00:38:38]:
And this lady— Prayer in the name of Saint Jesus the Messiah.

Partha [00:38:41]:
Okay. Yes. And this lady also read the Arabic and write the Arabic. Okay, okay, very good reader. Then I said, I pray to Isa al-Masih and he can heal you. It is God plan. And she said to me, okay, you can. And there's a Muslim witchcrafter, he doing 1 hour many thing, nothing happened. Then I said, God, if you not healed, then I have facing problem. Please, Lord, I know the time of Elijah, you give the miracles. Now we need, and I pray like a— when I praying like a Muslim people praying like this, oh, Hazrat Ali Masih, yes, Isa. I praying in Bengali. But the Muslim term is there, as she understand, because that time I read Quran and also the Bible. Yes. And when I praying 2 times, the boy is totally healed and he's— that was fine, okay. And then that is, uh, the witchcrapper, he just shocked. How it is possible? I am doing many things, nothing happened. And sisters also, the mother of this child. And she said to me, how it is possible? I know you don't know who is the Hazrat Isa (as). Yes, I know he is a prophet. I don't know, he is not only prophet. Then I share gospel from the Quran because I use Quran like a bridge. Quran to Bible. I praying and I just give some reference and she said me, okay, you buy for me a Quran. I want to check the meaning also. Okay, ma'am. Next day I buy for a Quran with translate and I read and I speak about who is Isa. You have to read the Taurat, Al-Zaboor, Al-Injeel and also the Quran chapter Surah Al-Maidah chapter 5, verse number 68 and 69, Allah clearly said, if you not believe the Torah, Zabur, you have, you have no religion, you have nothing to stand.

Don [00:41:01]:
So, and when he reads— just for the interest of those who are listening, the Torah and the Zabur are the— in English we call it the Torah and the Psalms. Yes, that's what, that's what the Muslims call those books.

Partha [00:41:14]:
Yes, yes, Torah is first 5 books from Moses. Yes, and the Zaboor and some, and then they don't know what is the meaning of Torah is, is a Bible. Then I clearly, what is the meaning of Torah and Zaboor and Al-Anbiya and Al-Injeel? And I believe this. Yes, then I say its book is totally exist because his Quran said the la kalima tabdil, the word is never be changed. ,How can your Imam say this change? I give some verse and she said me, it is very shocked because she see the miracles and now she read in Quran and next day she calls his husband, Ismail his name and we sit together and I praying, I share. Within one month, the Muslim family came to Christ and leave Islam, leave namaz, leave Roza, leave mosque, everything.

Don [00:42:18]:
So this was the family of the boy that was healed?

Partha [00:42:22]:
Yes, yes, this is the first full family. And then there's one of my friend, his name is Asraf, he also came to Jesus Christ. And now the Muslim church is now growth. Now we have arranged one debate from the Muslim scholar. His name is Rahul Hussain. And this debate also God is working. There's a Muslim writer, he's writing many things against the Christianity in many websites in Bangladesh. And he is a very popular writer. His name is— he came Muslim first, he Hindu, then he became a Muslim. His name is Ahmed Ubaidullah. His name is Ahmed Ubaidullah. And he is a very good writer and he is very good research and against the Christianity. He came this debate for helping this scholar for writing many things. When two days is debate, one is salvation in Christianity and Islam and is Prophet Muhammad mentioned in Bible. So we have 6 hours debate. Okay, 6 hours.

Don [00:43:30]:
6 hours debate. How many people were there?

Partha [00:43:32]:
Were there a couple of hundred? Hundred, and 70% Muslim, and 30% Muslim imam and hafiz is there. Imam, hafiz, many. And this is very good privilege for me. I share and debate the gospel.

Don [00:43:47]:
So just for the benefit of our listeners, hafiz are the people who've memorized the Quran.

Partha [00:43:52]:
Yes, yes, the those totally remember the Quran, and they are just shocked when we give some reference from the Sahih al-Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, Tabari, and they just— Yes, yes.

Don [00:44:08]:
How the Christian understands— I know all of this stuff. I'm just aware that people listening to this don't necessarily know Islam stuff, so I'm helping explain.

Partha [00:44:16]:
Yes, yes, yes, yes. Okay, okay. And, and that time This man, he arranged my phone number. I don't know who is, because there's many Muslim, many Muslim came and shake hand and said very good debate. This is, and it is a historical debate because it is first debate in West Bengal. This is the first public debate. First public debate. There's no one debate in previous year. This is the first debate. And he said me in phone, "Brother, I want to meet you." I know, "Who are you?" "Brother, you not remember me, but when we are in debate, we just talk with you." "Okay, many people are talk." He said me, "Brother, I want to come your home." Then I have some fear. I know, "Who are you?" Like, you know, they come and they kill. I know, "No, no, no." they say, you just send your picture. He sent his picture, the long braid. Oh my God. And I say, oh my God. No, no, no, brother. And that time he, you know, there's a called the university, but I think in our Kerala there's a very big university of Islam. And he doing very good course for 4 years. And he said me, I want to leave this college because I feel that Muhammad is a false prophet.

Don [00:45:50]:
Wow. He came to your house or he told you that by text?

Partha [00:45:53]:
By text and phone. He said, you give some reason. I give some, means, PDF for reading for their benefit and some scientific error in Quran. And hadith. I give something because he is a very knowledgeable man. He is a very clever and very knowledgeable man, and he is also very good in English. So I give some source to read. He also search, and he said, 'Brother, I search, I read, I want to leave Islam, but if I tell, they killed me,' because they are in all the— means in all the Islam people is there, and he is a very famous Muslim guy. Yes. So then I said, I don't believe that time he changed their mind. I think that is their— I think they came and they kill me because we arranged the debate and Muslim people did not give answer very carefully.

Don [00:46:56]:
So you didn't trust him?

Partha [00:46:58]:
No, I'm not trusting. But every day he called me, "Brother, please allow me in your home." My home? You? No. You stay, you read.

Don [00:47:07]:
So you didn't pray about it and ask God to guide you at first?

Partha [00:47:10]:
I am just praying, but I am very much fearful because when I saw the picture, I know he has a very dangerous look, he is very dangerous. So because we are Hindu people, we have a negative idea about Islam. Because Hindu and Muslim, they are still fighting in India also. Now also still fighting. The Hindu people, they don't like Muslim. Okay. So then one day I am saying, okay, you come. I don't know why I am— I think some power give me encourage to speak. And okay, you come. And when he came, he have a very big 2 and 3 bags. And I think this is full of weapon. I am very much fear, oh my God! What happen? And I go and I don't come my house. I give one room from the church, you stay here. I give food, not come my home. But 2 days and 3 days, 'And I arrange for my home to very far away for a home, Allah you go there and you stay. I give money, don't worry.' But definitely there's something, he's totally changed. And then he publicly announced in Facebook, 'I leave Islam.' And that is very dangerous time. All the Muslims searching. Where he is to kill him. And then he in underground in my home. I say, "Don't go because the people of the Islam, they search you, they kill you." And why you give in Facebook you accepted Christian and leave Islam? You don't give because you supposed to problem for me also. Because why you do? Well, I know it's my, in my heart. I leave Muhammad, he's a false prophet. I believe Jesus Christ. And he just write. And you don't know, I check his Facebook, minimum thousand and thousand Muslims searching where he is. Many Muslim think the Christian kidnapped this man. Then, but what happened, we send him the Bible college for theology. And he is in Bible college, he is top 1 rank in Bible college. Not surprising. Yes. Now he for the highest study in SAIACS Bible College in India for— SAIACS. Yes, Master of Theology and he working very— in this much he came back in my home and we doing ministry from the Islam. I tell him, because he's a very good writer and researcher. We have many books, it's English, but the Muslim, there's no Muslim, no book for the Muslim. And you know the Bangladesh and India and Tripura and Assam, there's many Muslim, but they have no materials for the Bengali people Muslim. The Hindi English people Muslim, there's many website. But in Bengal, it's a Bengali. You, when you came, if you came to now Bengal, you can see the very means everywhere there's a mosque, temple and mosque. I think they are the competition they are doing. But you know, there's one thing happened, there's no good materials for the Muslim in Bengali. No good materials, no good discipleship book. All they are English, but no, everybody they not understand English and it is very tough.

Don [00:50:58]:
And I tell you, so he's writing materials.

Partha [00:51:01]:
Yes, yes, he write many materials for PDF, not like a book, and he help and give training also. Now many pastors, we just call a training, many pastors, 30 or 40 pastors came for all over the West Bengal, came for this training, Muslim. We give him training.

Don [00:51:20]:
Go and just share. So we're actually running out of time. This is an amazing story. Let me just shift directions a bit and ask you a couple of other questions. Yes, yes. When you think of a Christian, a new believer, how do you try to disciple them to become strong? Because many times Muslims, when they come to faith, they have problems with their family, they have doubts, they struggle, and sometimes they go back to their family and go back to Islam. How do you and your team, how do you disciple the believers, Muslim and Hindu background, so that they become rooted and deep Christians?

Partha [00:52:09]:
Yes, it is This problem is faced everywhere in the world and also same in our place also. Discipleship is not very easy because people love to listen, see the miracles, but when the problem, torture, trouble come, they leave Jesus Christ. I saw also many things. But we do one thing, we follow the strategy of Jesus Christ. Is very— when we speak gospel and anyone came to faith, what we do? We— when if any new believer came to Christ, Muslim or Hindu, anyone, we have every day some house fellowship and house church and something evangelism, some work. We take him, come with us and see what we do. And when they come every day and they are learning many things. I am learning this process because that time I just go with only my pastor and I just watch what they do and I learning many things. Number 1. Number 2, we give some specific training for the discipleship training. Okay. And not only training, then we give some responsibility. In some leader, but we took over everything, we watch everything, we give some responsibility according to their means, they can, what they can do. Because many people, they are very good musician, we give the music class, through the music class many people came to Christ.

Don [00:53:51]:
According to their abilities and their gifts.

Partha [00:53:54]:
Yes, yes. Many people, they are very good means the youth leader. We give some 5 and 10 youth and we go, go and give the main gospel and disciple. And these people with us, they go and they go very good communication, friendship, playing. And this youth came to Jesus. So we do one thing. Number one is training. Number 2 is practical. Not only training inside the church, we main focus outside of the church. All because in our Kolkata there is lots of Christian people, they give everyday training. But many people come only for the training, but when the training complete and go to the field, nothing happen. I saw, right? They don't do anything. So we give mainly practical doing. Come with us, go with us, and this is very good, and they are strong in faith. I wish we had another hour to talk, but we don't because we try to keep— Yes, next we can another day.

Don [00:55:09]:
We could do another episode, perhaps we might do that. Let me just ask you a more personal question. Um, as you look back at your 17, 18 years as a Christian, is there one or two things that you look back as one of the hardest things you ever had to deal with, or the toughest times after you became a strong Christian?

Partha [00:55:38]:
Yes, yes, I have 2 things. Number 1, when I look back 16 years or 17 years, the main thing is the temptation in the problem that time I face in my— when I am age 18 and 19. Because in church, I mean, it is my personal eyes. Many people, when I want to grow in Christ, but I believe the church is like a hospital because no righteous people come here. Because there are many, yes, many type of people come. And I see that time I have motive, uh, tempt from many girls and they many offer me to go to doing many bad things. So that is very temptation. And that time also I am struggling for money also because in that time for Christian work or non-Christian work, we need some help, money, because we have no work that time, very struggling. So in my teenage years, actually I problem, thought is like attack of devil, it is like an atheism. Okay, many, many questions I have no answer. Yes, yes, yes, same also in our youth, you know, in our area, in our India also, in West Bengal, many youth, they just leave Christianity because they people not receive any good answer from their pastor or because they many question, many very good practicing Christian. Yes, they are preaching the gospel evangelism.

Don [00:57:39]:
These were your questions at that time, but I'm sort of asking a different question. After God brought you to him and you became an evangelist and a pastor Are there been some things in your life in the last 5 or 10 years that have been very difficult where you wrestled?

Partha [00:57:59]:
Yes, that is 3 things, actually 4 things. The first, you know, when I told him I have in my family 3 people die when we don't know Jesus. But we know Jesus, our family is totally okay, everything. But suddenly last year, 25, 3 people die in my family. Wow. My uncle, my auntie, my 2 uncle, and they believe very much Jesus Christ.

Don [00:58:37]:
They praying every day.

Partha [00:58:38]:
Very strong Christian. Very strong Christian. And when they die, really Means we have lost our hope. Then I told God, when I and my family don't know You, the same thing happened, 3 people die. Yes. But now we leave idols, we leave Hinduism, we leave every rituals, now we worship You. Everything we give our land for the church, many people came. Healing, miracles. But in my family, 3 people die just only 2 years. We praying, we fasting, but nothing happened. And this is very tough for me. And I remember 7 and 8 day, I not going outside, not preaching, not reading Bible. I am very much, 'Why God, why?' 'Why it is happening? We worship so much you every day and we read the Bible.' Yes, these are tough questions. Yes. At that time in our area Hindu people see Jesus doing nothing. And that time all the Hindu people, because in my area full of Hindu people, we are center Christian family, all the Hindu, they will say it. Jesus cannot do anything. Right. That time my uncle also who give, who is the main in charge of this land, he also leave their faith that time. Nothing happened. Worship, praising Jesus, nothing. And our family totally broken last year. Just last year? Last year. It is very tough for me. But God is recover me. There is another vision, not me. This is one of my young, one of our church member, new church member. When we go to the cemetery, you know, for my uncle that day, we just all are crying and When there's one of my friend, he doing every rituals things. And this man, he's close his eyes. His name is Pradeep. He close his eyes, he saw something. He is a new believer, he don't know what is the vision actually. And but 15 days, 7, 8 day I don't go come out from my home. 15 days I have no answer. 15 days, Lord, 'Why you take him? He is a very good Christian. His age only 50, 5-0. You know he is a very good man. He doing everything. Why you take him?' But 15 days I couldn't get any answer. And he, this man, I know something about him. Then I call him., you see something in vision, you tell any one of my auntie. And then he said me, Partha, I tell you something. And what, please tell me. I am broken. When we are in cemetery, I saw there's a full of angels. He never see like angel, but look like very white. And very white and hold all the angels where your— there's a grave round. And then I saw there is two leg from the heaven came out in the earth and the two leg is like moving. Then I remember, oh, heaven is my throne and earth is, you know, the Isaiah chapter 66, "The heaven is my throne." I remember this verse. Then he said me, "I saw your uncle, his face is so bright, he smile and Jesus take him. Don't cry." That day my all pain suddenly gone. That time my totally pain remove. This man, he don't know Bible, he just read some. He don't know angel how look like, but he exactly speak like Bible.

Don [01:03:16]:
We, when we read in the visions, like what was in scripture.

Partha [01:03:21]:
Yeah, yes. And that is where God is give the answer for my prayer. And now we have may remove ,all my pain and now you work.

Don [01:03:32]:
That was for you and the rest of your family also found comfort and hope?

Partha [01:03:38]:
Yes, yes, yes. This vision when he share, he give testimony in the church, many people those who are going through same like me, all the people is now is okay and starting more powerfully work.

Don [01:03:57]:
Yeah, let me ask you one more question and then we need to stop. Um, we're expecting that some younger men and women are listening and watching this podcast. As you think of someone in their early 20s trying to find out God's direction for their life, um, have you got any advice or counsel to give them as they're seeking clarity about what to do with their life?

Partha [01:04:29]:
Any wisdom from your experience? Yes, I give— it is my personal experience and I read also Bible. You know, who is now in teenagers or 20 and 20 who is searching God. I tell you one thing, wait. I know the wait is very important for the Lord, okay? Because in that time we can see changes very clearly. Because in our life that I remember, we need only shortcut, shortcut life, shortcut everything. We can what we want, we need now. Because I know that time I need bike, superbike. I pray God, you give me, then I believe you are God. There's many things. So now I am understand this is totally wrong. Okay, so one thing I just encourage you, read the Bible every day and stay with a very good church and very good mentor and wait for the Lord. And it is very good when you wait for the Lord, God give you right thing, right time. I see, because if I am doing hurry, I need this, I need that, because we know this world is, there is a god of this world is money. The money is now the very big challenge. Christian and non-Christian, both people are suffering. So also the young people also, they want money. And everything. They doing the bad, many smuggling and many, many, many bad way they are selected. So that's why I give this session, just wait and connect with Jesus and He give everything in right time.

Don [01:06:22]:
In the right time, yeah. So if someone is watching this and would like to somehow be in touch with your ministry or pray for you, we can put notes in the show notes afterwards, but is there some website or something that they could find you and get your newsletters?

Partha [01:06:45]:
Oh, they can. We have not now website. We, we want to make website this year, but they can connect with the email or my WhatsApp, WhatsApp number, or my email. Or they can connect with us and pray for us.

Don [01:07:01]:
And okay, we'll talk afterwards about that. I'm hesitant to put your, your email on the public, but we can talk. Okay, well, thank you so much. Uh, it's been a very good time. Um, yeah, God is at work. I'm privileged to know you and to meet you and I hope we can meet again face to face. Maybe I'll come out to India and spend some time with you.

Partha [01:07:29]:
Yes, please come.

Don [01:07:30]:
Please come India. Because I was, as I told you before, I spent about a month in Calcutta when I was 22 years old. So I haven't been back since then.

Partha [01:07:44]:
So God bless you.

Don [01:07:44]:
God bless you too. Thanks for joining the Reflexio podcast.

Partha [01:07:48]:
Thank you so much.

Don [01:07:51]:
Thank you. Well, thanks for joining us for another episode of the Reflexio podcast. I really enjoyed that conversation with Partha - quite moving, some of the stories he told. I hope that you will be blessed as well as I was as we talked, and encourage you to let other people know about this podcast and interact, give some comments, give a thumbs up, and look forward to seeing you on the next Episode of the Reflexio Podcast.

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