Set My People Free: Kamal Fahmi Challenges Apostasy and Blasphemy Laws

Don [00:00:00]:
Welcome to the 23rd episode of the Reflexio Podcast. I'm your host, Don Little, and in this episode I'm sitting down with my friend Kamal, a Sudanese brother who now lives in Europe. We discuss his childhood and his youth and his many years of ministry with Operation Mobilization in the Middle East, and then we pivot to talk about the ministry that he began, Set My People Free, which he began 10 or 12 years ago as a human rights activist group trying to campaign for human rights for Muslims and for converts out of Islam all across the Muslim world where they suffer from severe persecution due to blasphemy laws and other such Islamic Sharia law-based regulations that go against human rights. You will find this a fascinating conversation as we explore how Kamal came to start this ministry and what he is doing in it. And this is not the normal kind of discussion about ministry to Muslims, but it is more how can Christians actively help the human rights abuses and help stop them. I am sure you are going to enjoy this conversation that I had with Kamal. just a couple of months ago when I was at a conference with him in East Asia.

Don [00:01:27]:
So welcome, Kamal, to the Reflexio Podcast. It's great to have you as my guest. It's great that we could meet here in this, in this conference again. It's nice to be able to do this in person.

Kamal Fahmi [00:01:39]:
Yeah, thank you. Thank you for inviting me to be part of this and to share some of My journey with God, that's all.

Don [00:01:48]:
Amen. Why don't we just start out by introducing yourself to our listeners, your name, family, what you're doing, and then we'll go back and trace a bit of the journey.

Kamal [00:02:01]:
Yeah, my name is Kamal Fahmi. I originally come from Sudan, and I was born in 1953. And I became a Christian when I was 19 years. I married my wife, her name is Christina, and she's from Sweden. And my parents are Sudanese. My father was born in 1917 and my mother was born in 1924. And I was born in this house of Sudan, but we as a family originally, I am from the north.

Don [00:02:44]:
You're from the north even though you were born in the south?

Kamal [00:02:47]:
Yes, my father was mainly working in the south with the Ministry of Education during the British time. So, because I was born in '53, we were still under the British and he was working with the Ministry of Education. My parents are believers, Okay. And I have 3 daughters.

Don [00:03:11]:
So were your parents believers when you were young too? They raised you as believers?

Kamal [00:03:15]:
Yes.

Don [00:03:16]:
I mean, as Christians?

Kamal [00:03:16]:
My father, he actually, his father died quite early, so he was brought up actually, his uncle helped, but he was brought up in the Presbyterian, American Presbyterian Mission. They had worked in Sudan, and I think they had incredible impacts in many people. So, my father went to school in the American Mission School, and I mean, finished until high school. Then also, he studied, also did studies. There was a university in Asyut where he studied.

Don [00:03:55]:
In Asyut?

Kamal [00:03:57]:
Yeah, after he finished his high school in Sudan, he also, while he was studying, he was teaching also. And the whole— he had 3 sisters and 1 brother, and all also went to the American Mission School, one for the girls, and he had 3 sisters and 1 brother. And so he grew up as a Christian, very committed Christian. Actually, his life and my mother has really impacted me very much—

Don [00:04:30]:
Okay.

Kamal [00:04:30]:
In my walk with God.

Don [00:04:32]:
And so, yeah, why don't you tell us a little bit about that early, those early years and how you got into ministry with OM and other things?

Kamal [00:04:45]:
So, I mean, around 1957, '58, we moved to Khartoum from the South. My father was transferred and then he was working with the main office of the Ministry of Education in Khartoum, mainly as a deputy to the minister with elementary education.

Don [00:05:10]:
Okay.

Kamal [00:05:11]:
And I myself went to this American Mission School for my elementary and intermediate. Then my high school, I went to a Catholic school. It is known as Comboni College. It was started by the Comboni Catholic missionaries.

Don [00:05:37]:
Okay.

Kamal [00:05:37]:
They have a group. I mean, it is a kind of— I forgot, I cannot remember the English word for it, but it is like Mother Teresa group.

Don [00:05:50]:
Right.

Kamal [00:05:51]:
He had, they had this Comboni.

Don [00:05:53]:
It was a good education?

Kamal [00:05:54]:
Very good, and I studied in English. The medium of instruction was English. During my time in the elementary school and intermediate, there was a lot of Christian input. Of course, the teaching in the school was, we had a good Christian education, and we had good teachers. And then we went to church. The church was not so far from us. I could walk to the school, I could walk—

Don [00:06:20]:
It was a Presbyterian church?

Kamal [00:06:22]:
Presbyterian church, right. So, I mean, they have put really very good Christian values in our life. The only thing maybe I didn't realize that salvation is through grace. I thought it is more through what you do. I mean, it didn't mean that they didn't teach grace, but somehow I missed This is fairly common in kids who grew up in Christian homes.

Don [00:06:50]:
They think it's about what they do. Right.

Kamal [00:06:53]:
And I mean, I attended church regularly. We memorized Scripture.

Don [00:06:59]:
We—

Kamal [00:07:00]:
but I mean, it's— I mean, you feel God is in your life somehow. He's in the way things are happening and so on. I mean, we had Christmas plays during Christmas and so on. We participated in it and so on, and we went regularly to church, and somehow I thought I'm a Christian.

Don [00:07:22]:
Well, you were a cultural Christian.

Kamal [00:07:25]:
And then, I mean, and I didn't get into like whatever they think is sin. You didn't have a wild life? No smoking, no drinking, nothing was girls, or, and so on. But, and somehow you believe that there is God exists and so on. But I was involved very much in sport.

Don [00:07:49]:
Okay.

Kamal [00:07:49]:
And so that actually protected me.

Don [00:07:52]:
Were you a basketball player or what?

Kamal [00:07:53]:
I played basketball, football. My father was actually a known football player in Sudan. He was a coach of the one of the—

Don [00:08:01]:
The big teams?

Kamal [00:08:02]:
Big teams. And when he went to UK, during his education, just after the war, with my mother and oldest sister. He actually played in the second division.

Don [00:08:14]:
Wow.

Kamal [00:08:15]:
But anyway, so, but I was not very good. I mean, I played, I like, I played, you could say, pretty good, but not—

Don [00:08:26]:
It wasn't a career sport.

Kamal [00:08:27]:
Career sport, just fun. I liked sport very much. And then from high school in the American Mission School, I went and then studied my high school in Comboni College in Khartoum, and this was quite different.

Don [00:08:45]:
Mm-hmm.

Kamal [00:08:48]:
I mean, it was very, very good education. We had a number of priests who came from the States. When I joined there, we had 4 very new Italians who came from the US and joined the teachers. So, we got really good teachers. I mean, I was talking with somebody, I thought maybe they made us more philosophers when we were in that school. I took the science section. I was not sure really what I want to study in the future, but I took— I went into the— you call it branch or anyway—

Don [00:09:28]:
Department.

Kamal [00:09:29]:
because it is, you have more possibilities to choose either.

Don [00:09:33]:
The British system?

Kamal [00:09:35]:
It was British, you can sit also for all levels, the British system. And so it was really good, but somehow during the time there, I find myself I'm not perfect. that as I tried to be good, I mean, with the standards, these normal standards I put, I found that I'm not really perfect or complete because I was trying, I thought, that you kind of earn your salvation.

Don [00:10:18]:
Mm-hmm.

Kamal [00:10:20]:
And when I found myself I am not really perfect, I said God does not exist because then you can do what you like. My going to church was then not really, I go, but maybe I go late. It was not so important, focused more in my education, sport. I have not really went wild or anything, but you realize that you are not really perfect. And but I said, if God does not exist, what is the meaning of life?

Don [00:10:53]:
Right.

Kamal [00:10:56]:
Somehow I felt, I mean, God exists, but if he does not exist, what is the meaning of life really? Because your life ends by death, and if you live 60 years or 70 years or 100 years and then you are going to die. If you have money, if you are married, if you have children, you are also going to die. So why you suffer for 30, 40, 60, 70, or 100 years and then you die at the end? Why don't you die now?

Don [00:11:33]:
Okay.

Kamal [00:11:35]:
And finish the story because there is no meaning.

Don [00:11:37]:
Right.

Kamal [00:11:38]:
There is no any motivation to live. I mean, there must be something.

Don [00:11:43]:
So you were thinking this as a teenager?

Kamal [00:11:45]:
Right, that life cannot just end by death.

Don [00:11:51]:
Right, must be something more.

Kamal [00:11:52]:
There must be something more because I thought, I mean, even if I come after 100 years to Khartoum, I will not find anybody I know because everybody is dead. So, It cannot be like this. When I thought about that, I said there must be something. But, so it was kind of search, but I focused on my studies. I was not sure really what to study, and I did well in my school. And I mean, I always ask difficult questions in the class, so.

Don [00:12:30]:
Always ask questions.

Kamal [00:12:31]:
Actually, my friend called me philosopher.

Don [00:12:34]:
Okay.

Kamal [00:12:35]:
But anyway, I continued normal, and something happened when we came to the end of our high school. We were going to sit for our final exams, and we worked hard and we did it, but then the exams they were kind of leaked.

Don [00:13:03]:
Uh-huh.

Kamal [00:13:04]:
So after we sat for the exams, we have to sit for them again. And during the time between that, there was a— we had a conference. And in that conference, we had 2 young people who were from our youth group. who, they went to Dallas for Expo 1972.

Don [00:13:29]:
Okay.

Kamal [00:13:30]:
And when I searched actually in the internet, I realized that Expo was one of the outcomes of the Jesus Revolution in the US.

Don [00:13:42]:
Okay, it was that big Christian conference thing.

Kamal [00:13:45]:
Right, and they, it was done by Campus Crusade, I think, and they train people in how to use the Four Spiritual Laws booklet. And when they came back, they were planning to do this exhibit.

Don [00:13:59]:
In Khartoum?

Kamal [00:13:59]:
In Khartoum. These young people, one of them was a lady, she decided to have this conference, and it was done partly by some of the SIM missionaries and some from the Presbyterian Church in Khartoum. Actually, at that same time, we just moved from where we were living in Omdurman to Khartoum. My father was asked to be the general secretary for the Bible Society.

Don [00:14:29]:
Okay.

Kamal [00:14:29]:
And so it was during that time, and of course they organized a conference, and for me, of course, I was searching because I was, I mean, what is really the meaning of life if really God does not exist?

Don [00:14:52]:
Um-hmm.

Kamal [00:14:53]:
And when the conference was set up, I used to still go to church as normal and involved with sport. I mean, our school was really good. We had swimming pool, we had a cinema in the school, we had a lot of good activities, very competition in basketball, other things. Anyway, but so on Sunday, I think they were also praying for the conference, and I think we went to children's camp, youth camp when I was young.

Don [00:15:31]:
Sure.

Kamal [00:15:32]:
And high school also camps and so on, but I never really made that decision or realized that. But anyway, this conference was coming and we prayed for it. And then they want me to come and be in charge of the sports, and I promise I will go.

Don [00:15:55]:
Okay.

Kamal [00:15:55]:
But, and so that evening when they should pick us up to the camp, there was like a ferry there. in one of the clubs in Khartoum. So I went to eat and then I came late at around 10, 11, and they should have— they came to pick me up and I was not there to the camp. And I was planning I should not go.

Don [00:16:27]:
You decided not to go?

Kamal [00:16:28]:
Yeah, yeah, I was planning not to go. But when I woke up in the morning, my father said the pastor and they came to pick the young people for the— pick you for the camp and I think I promised them to take care of the sports. And he said to me, you are not going to the camp? I said, no, I am not thinking of going. But he said, the pastor came and you have promised them to do this, so you really have to go.

Don [00:16:59]:
You can't break your promise.

Kamal [00:17:02]:
Okay, I said I will go, but I went not so happy. I mean, but I decided to go because it is right. My father was really a man of integrity, so I decided to go. And I mean, I felt actually it was wrong for me to do it, but I was not so happy to go. So I said I will have my own program there. But of course, in the conference they were dealing with this issue of the the 4 spiritual laws. And one of the things which touched me was the first spiritual law is about that God loves us and he has a plan for our life.

Don [00:17:42]:
Um-hmm.

Kamal [00:17:42]:
And one of the, the Pastor Welling, who was preaching about the love of God, he said, imagine if my son come to me and said, Daddy, I will do whatever you want. Will I, he said, will I beat him because he's saying that? Just the opposite, I will love it and I will hug him. And he said it is the same with God. He loves us as a father loves his son.

Don [00:18:12]:
Mm-hmm.

Kamal [00:18:12]:
And so as we give our life to him, actually it is, he wants the best for us and he will be happy about this. It is not like— and so I— and they spoke about how God loves us and that he sent his only Son to die for us and that Jesus came that we may have life and we may have it abundantly. And so I thought, if he— why we are not experiencing it? If really God loves us and we have— abundant life, why we are not experiencing it in our life. And then, of course, they speak about the second spiritual law, that sin separated us from God, right? That all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Don [00:19:00]:
So each part of the— hit you?

Kamal [00:19:02]:
It hits, yeah, yeah. And that God sent his Son to die for us, and that was the solution for the problem. And if we accept this cure which said Jesus died for me on the cross and accept him in my life, I can experience his love and plan. And so this is what I did actually during that time.

Don [00:19:25]:
Yeah.

Kamal [00:19:26]:
I mean, mainly I followed the 4 days, but the last day they were going out and there is like a beach not so far from this camping place they were going to. But normally we went to swim there and so on, but they went there to share the gospel with the people who are there. And they weren't very happy, but I didn't have this in my life, so I sat down and I said, God, if this is true, help me to believe it. And actually then I prayed the prayer by myself, and that was the beginning.

Don [00:19:55]:
Okay.

Kamal [00:19:56]:
And that was the last day, and then we stayed and they spent, actually some people stayed like 12 or 15 and they prayed through the night.

Don [00:20:07]:
Wow!

Kamal [00:20:08]:
And so we did that, and that was the beginning. And 3 months after that, I felt, I mean, I had incredible peace. I experienced an incredible peace.

Don [00:20:19]:
You felt a change.

Kamal [00:20:20]:
Yeah, a change, that change I experienced. And then, of course, it was good because then I was going to a youth group in the SIM and also to my church, the Presbyterian Church, and another youth meeting. So I was getting a lot of good teaching. And helped me to grow. After 3 months, and I was incredible peace. There was no struggle and wonder what life—

Don [00:20:44]:
The struggle was gone.

Kamal [00:20:44]:
Because I was thinking, why not die? I mean, I didn't think of suicide, but I thought, I mean, death is better than just to go for 30 or 40 or 60 years and then die. I felt a very clear call from God that he want me to go into the ministry. This I didn't want to do.

Don [00:21:03]:
Into ministry?

Kamal [00:21:04]:
Yeah.

Don [00:21:05]:
You didn't know what it meant exactly, but you were thinking like a pastor?

Kamal [00:21:07]:
A pastor or just go full-time.

Don [00:21:10]:
Full-time.

Kamal [00:21:11]:
But, and I mean, of course, for us understanding of this is always to go and study theology and to become a pastor and to work in the church. And for me, this was a difficult decision. And so I really struggled. I lost my peace because I didn't want to do this. You didn't want to do it.

Don [00:21:31]:
No, I don't want to do that, God.

Kamal [00:21:35]:
I really lost the peace I experienced. And because I knew now very clearly God wanted me to do this and I didn't want to do it. So every time I say, I have committed my life to you, I say to you, what about this? Because I wanted to finish my studies and he said, it was clear that he wanted me to go to start now.

Don [00:21:57]:
Okay.

Kamal [00:22:00]:
So I really struggled with it. And 6 months after my salvation, after— it was in one of the meetings, a lady spoke. And when she spoke, she was a missionary who was in Sudan and she came for a visit, I think, and she spoke in the youth meeting. And it really convicted me. And so when I went out, I was going from this youth meeting to another youth meeting. On the road I wept and said, God, I cannot make this decision, because I felt the same question. I want to give you my life, but he said to me, what about this full-time ministry which I did? So I said, God, I cannot do it myself, I need your help. If you want me to do it, you have to work in my heart to do this.

Don [00:22:52]:
Amen!

Kamal [00:22:54]:
And then, for the first time, I shared it with some of my friends, the ones who really helped us very much in the youth group, but also they were some of the leaders in the conference when we had it, and I just left it like this. And so, 11 months later, the ship Logos came.

Don [00:23:16]:
Aha!

Kamal [00:23:20]:
Again, when the ship came, I felt that God wanted me to join.

Don [00:23:23]:
To join the ship?

Kamal [00:23:24]:
The ship. And I mean—

Don [00:23:27]:
Were you already in your first year of college by then?

Kamal [00:23:30]:
No, I was still waiting to finish those exams and waiting. And from that, you go to the university straight. But so there were— I was trying to get a scholarship outside because I couldn't get into within Sudan, there was a possibility to go to other places. But then I thought, I go to this, I felt, to decide what I should do with my life. So, that was the beginning. So, I joined the Logos and that, we were on it for about, I was on it for about 13 months. I mean, the interesting thing when I—

Don [00:24:12]:
13 months with the Logos?

Kamal [00:24:14]:
20, about 20. 20. I mean, it is a lot. I don't know if I get into this, but it was, I mean, just when I went to, it was interesting because we were in a picnic with the ship people outside. We helped them as volunteers. When we heard that they want some people to go, I spoke with our American missionary in the SIM and he gave me a book about how to find God's will. And of course, he said to me, I mean, this group you are going with is not so organized, but anyway, it is good. I think he felt, they felt it is good. But then The same evening we were going to have a meeting, like an interview, and when we— that they decide if they should take us or not.

Don [00:25:17]:
Right.

Kamal [00:25:18]:
And then they, in that meeting, they said they will not take me because I am a young believer and also young. I think they wanted some people over 21. So I said to God, you see, I did—

Don [00:25:35]:
I did what I could.

Kamal [00:25:37]:
What I felt you want me to do and they didn't take me and then this is not my responsibility. But actually, that day also, I was going, I just went, there was a small door which goes into the garden where they were meeting with the people who want. And I went in and then I changed my mind, I want to go out, but then One of the missionaries stood at that small door. He said, where are you going? I said, I am going home. He said to me, we heard that you want to— Join the ship. To go with the ship. You have to meet them now because if you don't meet them now, there is no chance. But I said, I need to check with my family and so on. But he said, why don't you go and meet them and talk with them and later I mean, you can accept his family. So I retained. If I didn't meet him, I would have been out. Anyway, they took me. First they said no, a day later they said they would take me. And then, so I went. And during my time there, I decided to continue full-time. So I wrote to my family, I said I will not come and finish my studies.

Don [00:26:51]:
Okay.

Kamal [00:26:54]:
And then I returned after 20 months. I mean, we, during the trip, we were in Saigon, for example. We went to the Far East. We came here to Thailand.

Don [00:27:03]:
Wow.

Kamal [00:27:04]:
We went to many places, India, the Gulf States, and then I left the ship in India. We traveled overland through Pakistan, Afghanistan.

Don [00:27:15]:
What year was this?

Kamal [00:27:16]:
This was 1975.

Don [00:27:19]:
5. Okay.

Kamal [00:27:20]:
So you can drive at that time. You can take a bus from New Delhi all the way to London. But we, we went on an OM truck from New Delhi to, to Kabul. So we picked some people who were traveling to Europe also.

Don [00:27:36]:
I was one of the last people driving from Belgium to India. I did the trick in '77.

Kamal [00:27:41]:
Wow. Yeah.

Don [00:27:43]:
With OM.

Kamal [00:27:43]:
Yeah, it is an incredible trip.

Don [00:27:46]:
Yes.

Kamal [00:27:46]:
And actually what happened during this time, God opened my— enlarged our vision because we saw the churches in all these different places, in Vietnam, in Sri Lanka, in India, in Malaysia, and it gives you a bigger perspective of the Church of Christ.

Don [00:28:07]:
Yes.

Kamal [00:28:08]:
And the way your heart gets linked with them in spite of the differences and the way of worship and so on. And you see really God's work in so many places.

Don [00:28:19]:
So, because we don't have a lot of time, so did that end up you stayed with OM, or did you come back and do some studies, or did you just stay with OM?

Kamal [00:28:30]:
While I am on the ship, I felt God wanted us to start something similar work to what we had in Sudan. But then as I was talking with the ship and I met with somebody who works in Turkey, they said maybe I study in Turkey And there maybe start to work among Muslims and it would be more like a training for me.

Don [00:28:52]:
Right.

Kamal [00:28:52]:
But of course in the ship a lot of spiritual input in my life through everyday devotion, prayer nights, teaching, good Bible teaching all the time. Anyway, so from Turkey I went there and there was a system that you can apply. And then you can join Ankara University. And then I went to Khartoum, and I went to Khartoum back also overland via Lebanon. The war was just starting in Lebanon. And then anyway, I went to Sudan, and then I was just waiting for the result of the application. But then the message came that you have to sit for a test. They changed the system. It was not enough to leave the certificate. So then that door closed and here I am again in Sudan, but I started like a prayer meeting.

Don [00:29:48]:
Um-hmm.

Kamal [00:29:50]:
I think every 2 weeks. Started to do kind of some ministry, active with the church. And then, but during that time, of course, I got more pressure that either I go to Bible school or go to study. secular, but more I wanted to study secular. I didn't really want to go to Bible school.

Don [00:30:11]:
Um-hmm.

Kamal [00:30:12]:
But my feeling was more God wants us to start to do ministry. So, but there was a process for me to go to the US. There was a missionary who was a friend of my father that there was a possibility to go there. So we were working on this. So during that time I am waiting, I got a telegram that they come to the ship to help them with the lineup in Egypt. And it came on a telegram and I got the telegram.

Don [00:30:42]:
Yes.

Kamal [00:30:42]:
Incredible. And I felt I should go, but everybody was against this, really. They felt either it is Bible school or I should go to secular studies. But then I had this verse from Galatians chapter 1, verse 10, which is really powerful, where Paul said, if I am seeking to please men, I am not worthy to be a servant for Christ. He was speaking about the teaching, but it is actually in each area of life. And this verse has become very important for me, is that the most important thing is to do what pleases God.

Don [00:31:23]:
Amen.

Kamal [00:31:24]:
Because if you do what pleases men, they can say this is good today, after 10 days they may say it was not right.

Don [00:31:32]:
It is not the right thing, do this instead.

Kamal [00:31:34]:
And if they say it is not right, maybe after 1 year they say, oh, I am sorry, it was not right.

Don [00:31:43]:
So pleasing God is better.

Kamal [00:31:45]:
Better. If it is right today, it is right for good, and it is the best for my family. So you are not, you don't get torn apart by what people say. Anyway, So that actually, and I felt also God want me to go to get people to help us with the work. So anyway, so when I went to Egypt, the leader for the Arab world was coming and being based in Egypt, and I have asked him to get a team to help us in Sudan, and he agreed, and that was the beginning of the work of Sudan.

Don [00:32:18]:
So you actually launched the work of Sudan?

Kamal [00:32:21]:
Right, yes.

Don [00:32:22]:
So, because we can't go through every detail, so how long were you with OM and you moved up in leadership? You moved to Jordan later. Were you the Middle East leader at some point?

Kamal [00:32:38]:
Right, so we did ministry on that year. We started with the summer outreach and then I led the work in Sudan for 19 years. We focused on evangelism. discipleship, then church planting at the end, and mercy work. So we really covered the whole country.

Don [00:32:56]:
Richard Neufeld was there during that time?

Kamal [00:32:58]:
Richard came there. He was also one of the long-termers in Sudan. He worked as a single and then came later as a married couple. So that was— and actually so many young people from the West came and they, maybe they didn't know the language, maybe they were not so experienced, but they did God's will in their life. And as they died to serve, they had an impact. And God through them raised so many good young people in Sudan and many of the ones who—

Don [00:33:32]:
Mobilized.

Kamal [00:33:32]:
Mobilized the church and really did an incredible outreach in the whole country. And it was a good timing because it was a time of peace.

Don [00:33:40]:
It was God It was the short time of peace between wars.

Kamal [00:33:45]:
The door was open completely. The religion of the country at that time was Christianity and Islam. So we had the right and the freedom to really preach, so incredible. And through the summer, the outreach went out. So you see the hand of God in everything. This is why, I mean, all these details, but to see how God really is working. And so for 19 years we did that. We had floating Holy Bible exhibitions, summer outreaches, started some mercy work. I mean, really incredible, really the hand of God, you see.

Don [00:34:21]:
Yes.

Kamal [00:34:21]:
And then in '95, they asked me to be the area coordinator for the Middle East, and that was another step. also where God opened my eyes to the needs in the Middle East, and I did that for 15 years.

Don [00:34:38]:
And you went to Jordan to do that?

Kamal [00:34:40]:
And then we moved to Jordan, and we did it 9 years from Jordan and another 9 years from— these 15 years, 9 years from Jordan, and I also lived in Egypt for 10 years, but I did it until 2010.

Don [00:35:00]:
Okay.

Kamal [00:35:00]:
And during that time when we worked in that region, of course, the region was struggling. Some areas we had no churches, and this was like Saudi Arabia, the Arabian Peninsula. And it was— and then you had underground churches mostly in North Africa. Libya also didn't have churches, but there were underground churches in North Africa. And then The Near East, of course, Sudan and Egypt and Iraq, they had these traditional churches or the churches for nationalists.

Don [00:35:35]:
Right.

Kamal [00:35:36]:
Which are not Muslim, and they had churches, they had Bible schools and so on. And somehow, but the church during this time has grown so much. We praise the Lord from that time to today. During that period, at the end of my term, I felt the problem with apostasy and blasphemy law. I was in 2008, I was in Yemen during my visit to the team there, and I visited, there were different cities where there were seekers and believers, but in one When I met a family where the father, he asked me to meet him and his son the next day after we had like a Bible study and we broke bread together and so on, because he said his son doesn't want to study Islam in the school. And if he doesn't study Islam, he will not be able to pass, but at the same time, it will cause problem to the family. because in Yemen there is death sentence for leaving Islam.

Don [00:36:49]:
Hmm.

Kamal [00:36:49]:
And I discovered that the father has become a Christian when he was 19, but he is the father of the boy. But the grandfather was a believer before the son. And so the side of the father were believers. The wife, her father had a problem with his knee, a team was visiting, prayed for him, God healed him, also became a believer. So both sides, but they cannot live as Christians, and I felt this is not right.

Don [00:37:23]:
They couldn't live freely as Christians?

Kamal [00:37:25]:
As Christians, no, they have to believe underground. And then also Article 18 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights very clearly say there is freedom of thought, conscience, and belief. And you have also the freedom to change your belief and practice it.

Don [00:37:50]:
So, you and I know what the law of apostasy is and all, but not everyone watching this understands Islam so well. Can you explain what the 2 laws are that cause this? This religious oppression?

Kamal [00:38:07]:
Apostasy is leaving Islam, and in Islam, the penalty for leaving Islam is death sentence. And it comes in the Hadith, it also comes in the Quran, but it is more clear in the Hadith, we say,(spoke in Arabic). Muhammad said. al-Qaradawi even said it, we have a clip on our website which clearly says the person who leaves his religion shall be executed. So leaving Islam, the penalty for it according to Islam is death, death sentence. And even in Sudan, after applying Sharia, they had it in the constitution, in the law, that there is death sentence.

Don [00:38:53]:
During this period after everything was open, They changed it?

Kamal [00:38:56]:
They applied Sharia in 1983. So we had a period, but thankfully even after they applied Sharia, we were able to continue because the same government was there. But they had that law in the constitution and they executed Mahmoud Mohammad Taha who started the Republic, a kind called the Republican Party. It is a kind of Islam. They were called the Jamhuriyun (Republicans), and he was executed, and his age was over 70. He was actually— he was over 75 when he was executed, and in Sudan, you should not be executed if you are over 70.

Don [00:39:43]:
He was executed for what?

Kamal [00:39:44]:
For apostasy, leaving Islam. In spite, he had a different kind of teaching.

Don [00:39:49]:
This is Taha?

Kamal [00:39:50]:
Mahmoud Mohammed Taha, yeah.

Don [00:39:52]:
Yes, he had a more pacifist interpretation.

Kamal [00:39:57]:
Interpretation of Islam.

Don [00:39:59]:
So, he was executed for apostasy?

Kamal [00:40:01]:
Apostasy, yeah. And there were some others with him, they renounced their faith and they were not executed, but he refused to renounce, and so they executed him.

Don [00:40:12]:
So, he was executed for being a different kind of Muslim?

Kamal [00:40:15]:
Yeah, but mainly they considered him, he left Islam.

Don [00:40:19]:
Yeah.

Kamal [00:40:19]:
And I mean, it was interesting. They were more, in a way, they were nonviolent. They were, in many ways, condemned the Muslim Brothers and Sharia. And so, actually, apostasy is also, for Ahmadiyya, their concept, considering them apostates. Baha'is, they are considered apostates also.

Don [00:40:49]:
And then, I thought you said the law of apostasy and—

Kamal [00:40:54]:
And blasphemy law. Blasphemy law, if you— any criticism to Muhammad or the teaching of Muhammad, So, for example, if you say that cutting of hand is not good, this is considered blasphemy. If you don't pray, this is— that is considered apostasy. But if you criticize, for example, there was a governor of Jakarta and he was the governor for Jakarta for 4 years, but then when it came for election again, They said, we don't want non-Muslim to rule over us, over Muslims.

Don [00:41:42]:
He was a Christian.

Kamal [00:41:43]:
And he was a Christian. And according to Sharia, a non-Muslim cannot live over Muslims. So actually, this is why Islam is not compatible with democracy, because any non-Muslim is a second-class citizen. And so, and what he said, the problem why he was accused of blasphemy, he said this hadith which say that a non-Muslim cannot— he said this is a weak hadith, that a Muslim— a non-Muslim cannot rule over a Muslim. And this was considered blasphemy against Islam, and you should die for it. And he was sentenced for 5 years prison. They didn't kill him.

Don [00:42:37]:
I remember this, yeah.

Kamal [00:42:38]:
But he wanted to appeal. The people said, please don't appeal because they will go to death sentence. And actually, the Muslims were very upset that it was not death sentence. So actually criticizing the law or considering it it is not right to do it, it is considered blasphemy. So any criticism to Muhammad or to the laws of Muhammad, and people don't realize, and many people say, oh, this is not written in Quran, but the hadith of Muhammad is also considered the law. Authoritative, yeah.

Don [00:43:16]:
So just, so you were ministry leader overseeing OM in the Middle East, But you felt this, it was time to do something about this because you were living with this all the time, with the persecution, but you felt like something needs to be done actively to try to combat this.

Kamal [00:43:36]:
Yeah, I felt this is wrong. Why do we accept this?

Don [00:43:42]:
Yes, in the modern world.

Kamal [00:43:44]:
In the modern world, and it is not right because if your faith does not come from your heart, God will not accept it.

Don [00:43:50]:
Right.

Kamal [00:43:51]:
And I mean, I heard also, you know, the stories of the cases. It came to start, I mean, somehow God brought my attention to it. And he felt, he said, this has to go. Otherwise, I would not have gone through this. And then I thought of Mahdi Dibaj. He was the head of the Bible Society in Iran.

Don [00:44:18]:
Right.

Kamal [00:44:18]:
And after the Islamic Revolution there, they arrested him and he was in prison for 10 years and he was sentenced to death, but because of the international pressure, they didn't kill him. And he said, I am not just only willing to suffer for Christ, he said, I am willing to die for Christ. And then, of course, his story is that they released him at the end. And the pastor of the Pentecostal church, who is Armenian, stood with him and got him out. And that pastor, I miss the name now, but he got killed 2 weeks after Mehdi Dibaj was out of prison.

Don [00:44:57]:
Because he got him out of prison.

Kamal [00:44:58]:
Got him out of prison. And then Mahdi Dibaj, they told him, leave Iran. He said, no, I will not leave Iran. I want to reach my own people. 6 months later, he was kidnapped, and Iranian brothers told me they found his body cut to pieces in a plastic bag in a park. And so this shocked me, you know.

Don [00:45:21]:
What year was that? Was that in the past?

Kamal [00:45:23]:
It was— the years are difficult to think, but it was not so long after the— it was the end of the '80s. Okay, end of the '80s. The revolution was '79, so it is very close, just 10 years, because he spent 10 years in prison. So '89, about that time. And you see, it is not this only, it is like many. Then we had somebody called al-Faqih in Sudan. He was a Sharia teacher in in Oman, and he came back to Sudan. So he was quite a scholar, and he came to Sudan, and some of our teams, they studied the New Testament with him, and he converted to Christianity.

Don [00:46:15]:
Right.

Kamal [00:46:15]:
For 2 years they left him, but then because he is quite a scholar, they arrested him. They put him in in prison. And it was this prison where you are in waiting, so it is very crowded, service is not so good. And from time to time they took him to court so he will renounce his faith. Then they will say— and he refused to renounce. And they, they said to him, we will give you a house, money.

Don [00:46:49]:
To renounce.

Kamal [00:46:50]:
To renounce. He refused. Then one of the times they took him to the court and said to him, say by your mouth that you are a Muslim and keep your faith in your heart. He said, no. He said, I am an Islamic teacher before, and Islam, they say you have the worst place in hell for hypocrites. You want me to be a hypocrite?

Don [00:47:14]:
Yes.

Kamal [00:47:14]:
And, you know, he got a stroke in prison. And he got paralyzed. And when they want to treat him, they were tying him with the chain to the bed in the hospital. And the doctor said to them, he cannot run away, untie him. And they tried to treat him, but again, international pressure, he was released and he went to Jordan. He was treated there, and then from there he went to the States. But why should they go through this?

Don [00:47:49]:
So you ended up starting an advocacy organization.

Kamal [00:47:57]:
Right.

Don [00:47:58]:
And you are trying different channels to get these laws changed.

Kamal [00:48:05]:
Right.

Don [00:48:05]:
Can you tell a little bit about what that looks like?

Kamal [00:48:08]:
I mean, again, really God guided us. leading us what to do, and the goal is to abolish it.

Don [00:48:17]:
Abolish it.

Kamal [00:48:18]:
Because it is against Article 18 and 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and this is a human right, freedom of thought and conscience and belief. And so we have to appeal to Caesar, we have to appeal to the UN and through also the different countries that they work to see this. So the first thing, we decided to write a letter to the Arab League that they give freedom to change belief, they should give freedom for evangelism, and they should not discriminate against citizens because of their religion. Because this is 3 problems we have within the—

Don [00:49:02]:
Yeah.

Kamal [00:49:03]:
And we send a letter related, related, and we send it to all the members of the Arab League.

Don [00:49:11]:
Arab League.

Kamal [00:49:11]:
And then we started to work also through the EU. We go to, they have something called Organization of Security and Cooperation, they deal with issues of religious freedom for Europe, Central Asia, Turkey, and North America, it is a yearly meeting. We started to go to the UN because the UN should protect these rights for the individual. They have freedom of association part of it, which means you can meet also.

Don [00:49:42]:
Yeah.

Kamal [00:49:43]:
And of course, the freedom to confer their beliefs. So we started the process of— and God has really— we work so closely with the religious independent reporter for religious freedom for the UN on this. We do side events in the Human Rights Council. We have approached the different countries applying this and asked them to change.

Don [00:50:06]:
So what is the name of the organization?

Kamal [00:50:09]:
We started Set My People Free, we called it. Actually, when I was sent with OM, we were part of a Swedish mission. They supported us to work and we normally met in Turkey and we prayed for one another. I said, we are planning to do this. Somebody gave us a verse, set my people free to worship me. And so this is how we got the name, and we felt that this is a good name for this. And we were influenced very much with Martin Luther King when he worked against segregation. Wilberforce.

Don [00:50:51]:
Yes.

Kamal [00:50:54]:
And we actually listened to some of the tapes of Martin Luther King, their movement, nonviolent movement to change things. He said, we are working for justice and changing the laws. And that is, we have been working nonviolence.

Don [00:51:15]:
Yeah.

Kamal [00:51:17]:
And that is, you can go to our website, you get more information. how the things developed. And now, then we were part of a network called Religious Liberty Partnership. We also worked together with other groups, Christian human rights groups. And then through some of them who have accreditation like Jubilee Campaign in the Human Rights Council in the UN, we can go into the UN and do these activities and so on and even have statements.

Don [00:51:52]:
So, I think, was it almost 10 years ago maybe when we met and talked about this when you were in Cairo? Have you seen some victories, any changes in any countries?

Kamal [00:52:06]:
Yeah, of course, what is also the church has grown in these countries.

Don [00:52:11]:
Awareness.

Kamal [00:52:12]:
Awareness, and the churches are demanding their right to exist. So Sudan, during the civilian government, after the great protests which passed there and we got a civilian government, they pulled the death sentences, the whole apostasy and blasphemy law.

Don [00:52:33]:
They pulled it out.

Kamal [00:52:34]:
They abolished it, and that was a miracle. Of course, sadly, then this war started, but this constitution which was made, It's not changed, still there. Still there, just not being followed. It's not being followed, but I mean, they cannot really break it at this point, but the community can go against it, because there is insecurity. So there are 11 countries still have death sentence. The UAE also had death sentence, but they took it away. But still, Yemen, there is 11 countries have the Saudi Arabia, Somalia, and Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Maldives Island, Brunei. They have the— Qatar has the death sentence.

Don [00:53:32]:
Indonesia?

Kamal [00:53:33]:
Indonesia doesn't have the death sentence, and actually they have Still, I mean, according to the constitution, there is freedom of conversion there. But the problem is the areas where you don't have these laws, the community sometimes carries the law in their hand. So we, but we still need to speak against it, but when the law doesn't give you the right to do it, you are more protected.

Don [00:54:02]:
Yeah.

Kamal [00:54:03]:
But there is another 15 countries which is, it is a crime to leave Islam. So you cannot—

Don [00:54:10]:
It is not a death penalty, but it is a crime.

Kamal [00:54:12]:
A crime. So you cannot exist as a non-Muslim, and that is difficult because it is difficult if you are a Muslim woman who becomes Christian, you cannot marry a non-Muslim, and you cannot bring your children. If they go to school, they have to take Islam even if you are a Christian. So, you cannot change that. This is countries like Jordan, Egypt, so it is very, very difficult. Turkey, the constitution gives you freedom, but still you have problems. They also put pressure.

Don [00:54:49]:
Because the current government is Islamist.

Kamal [00:54:52]:
Islamic government, but if you fight According to the problem, of course, the courts themselves are not just. Like these missionaries who were killed in eastern Turkey, the people who killed them are free today.

Don [00:55:06]:
No penalty.

Kamal [00:55:08]:
No penalty. So, this is evil, this is unjust, and we need to work for justice. It is unjust to have such a law where you are not free to choose your belief. And 1.3 billion Muslims today, according to the constitution, they don't have freedom to leave Islam.

Don [00:55:33]:
Yeah.

Kamal [00:55:34]:
And it is a death penalty, and it is sad. And one of the verses which really push us to do more about this is really in James chapter 2, because many people, when they speak about this, they say, oh, Christians need to suffer, they suffer. This is part— if I am suffering, I have to accept suffering for myself, but if my brother is suffering, I have to help him, to protect him. Otherwise, it is like what he said, faith without work is dead.

Don [00:56:10]:
Right.

Kamal [00:56:10]:
If your brother is hungry and you don't give him food and he's in it close and you let them go, because faith without work is dead.

Don [00:56:21]:
Yeah.

Kamal [00:56:22]:
And it is more like, it is like a corpse, he said, because, because without faith, faith without work is dead, it is like a corpse, and the longer the corpse stays, the more it will smell. And we need, we need to do something about this, to stand with our brothers and sisters. And Jesus himself stood. He said to Paul, why do you persecute me?

Don [00:56:49]:
Yes.

Kamal [00:56:50]:
He spoke to him. And we need to help our brothers to experience the freedom, the freedom for the church to exist, the freedom for the church to practice their faith, the freedom to share their faith. This is justice. And even Paul himself, when he was beaten, he didn't say, oh, I have to suffer because—

Don [00:57:14]:
I am a Roman citizen.

Kamal [00:57:16]:
I am a Roman citizen. He said, they have to come and apologize to me. I am not going to leave. I am not going to go. And so we need, we have rights as Christians in these countries and we need to stand with them. And lately the believers have come to us and they say, We want to be recognized. A brother from Yemen came, Kamal, we want the church in Yemen to be recognized.

Don [00:57:40]:
Yes.

Kamal [00:57:40]:
And they formed a council of minorities and they want these minorities to be recognized. And he has spoken actually in the UN in spite of the danger on his life. He spoke openly with his name that we want all the members of the Human Rights Council that we want the church in Yemen to be recognized.

Don [00:58:03]:
So there's a, like UK, US, some of these current governments are supporting this work. They're trying to push back against this stuff, right? You're getting support from governments?

Kamal [00:58:19]:
Right, right. I think even within the EU, within UK, The US is actually one of the strongest for religious freedom. And so much, you have done so much, have helped us a lot with many cases of people in prison. And today, even now while we are sitting here, there is over 60 prisoners in Yemen.

Don [00:58:44]:
In Yemen alone?

Kamal [00:58:45]:
Alone, 60, and we don't know how many more. And the people, the Christians, they had to flee to the mountains. And so these 60s, they have either husbands or wives or children, and they need them. So it is not only the 60s suffering, the whole society is suffering. And the ones who have run away, they are hiding, they need help. And I mean, for what? They didn't commit any crime.

Don [00:59:13]:
Right.

Kamal [00:59:13]:
They want to live as good citizens in Yemen, but they don't have the right to do this. And the same in Algeria, the churches are closed.

Don [00:59:22]:
So I don't think about this very often, but you do. Is this a heavy burden, or do you find God gives you grace just to push hard but trust him? How do you work with the pressure of this oppression? that you are trying to free people from?

Kamal [00:59:46]:
We pray. I think it is very important at least to pray, and that gives us rest. Of course, we are on the victory side in some ways, but it is painful. It depresses you. And again, when you see the atrocities which is happening because of this loss in Nigeria, in Afghanistan, in Yemen, in Saudi Arabia, in Iran. I mean, they just killed some believers now during this time, and when they kill all these over 40,000, like these innocent people, kill the people who are treating them in the hospitals.

Don [01:00:30]:
Yes.

Kamal [01:00:31]:
When you kill girls because they are not putting a scarf on their head, It is wicked. It is wicked. And I mean, the world is silent. They don't say anything. And I mean, this lately, it was very hard to pray. And we just pray, God, we are praying for justice. We have to pray for justice, penalty for those who are doing these atrocities. You cannot be silent for a Holocaust. You have to pray, it is evil and it has to change.

Don [01:01:05]:
Amen.

Kamal [01:01:07]:
And we pray, but many times you get depressed, emotionally got a lot of pressure. I mean, there is a guy now, his name is Dia, from 2019 he is in prison in Libya. There is a girl at the age of 19, she is from 2019, 2023 in prison in Mauritania. She was put in prison when she was 19 years. And Dia is sentenced to death and he doesn't want to renounce his faith. And they get tortured.

Don [01:01:45]:
Yeah.

Kamal [01:01:46]:
There is one girl now just released after 3 years in prison. Emotionally, she is broken.

Don [01:01:52]:
Yeah.

Kamal [01:01:53]:
in Libya. She is not feeling well, we cannot help her.

Don [01:01:57]:
Is she out of the country?

Kamal [01:01:58]:
No, she is still in the country, she is with her mother. And I mean, this is case, case, case, case, there are so many cases, you cannot— I mean, even Faki, his whole life, I mean, he went to the States, he died in a car accident, and then his family, all his 7 children were believers. Faki is the one I said to you that he did it He said the hypocrite has the worst place in hell. But his wife is a believer, his children. But I mean, even when I was talking about Yemen, there was a guy also who was sponsoring the language school in Yemen, and when it— they put pressure on him to say the name of the people who have been working there and he refused. He had to leave. He thought if he stayed, he would be tortured, killed. He came to Jordan, he stayed for 4 years. And then even if they want to go to Bible schools in these countries, they don't allow them. The only country where converts can go to Bible school is Lebanon.

Don [01:03:08]:
Yeah, in the whole Middle East.

Kamal [01:03:10]:
In the whole Middle East.

Don [01:03:13]:
We're running out of time.

Kamal [01:03:14]:
Yeah.

Don [01:03:14]:
In the West, in America and Europe, young Christians— I'm at a university— they're not so interested in missions, but they're very interested in justice issues. If you got a word to say to these young people, like, how can you channel your life in a way that will bring Kingdom good? and even help address this issue? Any words to these young men and women?

Kamal [01:03:44]:
I mean, of course, first you will start to pray for a change. But it is very important to start to advocate and also to use social media to share about this problem and to appeal for it to be changed. And so you need to protest against it. I mean, so many groups are protesting, lobbying for other things which are not so—

Don [01:04:14]:
That's right.

Kamal [01:04:15]:
We can lobby for this. We were thinking first that every Easter, Passover, we should really do a protest worldwide that these laws will be abolished. I mean, protest is one of the things Martin Luther King did. Nonviolence, we are not— there is a right to pray for these people who are in prison, to pray that these laws will change. When Esther was going to meet the king, she asked for fasting and prayer. But you can do actions. We need a lot of help within our organization for people to help us with media, with putting out facts about this.

Don [01:04:59]:
Yes.

Kamal [01:05:00]:
We do exhibitions, by the way, on the streets and put big posters, show the problem, go and speak to politicians. When I go back from here, we are going to have a big display in Sweden where they have a gathering for politicians to— so the different parties come and give their programs and their plans, and we come there and bring this issue up so that these countries will do something. Lobby with your own congressmen that they will do something about this, that the states will put pressure. I mean, for example, they have the parliament in Uganda, they were put under pressure when they voted against homosexual things, and they put pressure that those people cannot get visa to America. Why not do for this? These years they are executing people for their belief, and as Christians we are quiet.

Don [01:06:03]:
Yeah.

Kamal [01:06:06]:
People say, oh, persecution is good for the church.

Don [01:06:11]:
Well.

Kamal [01:06:11]:
The persecution is used to get rid of the church.

Don [01:06:17]:
Yeah.

Kamal [01:06:18]:
I mean, if persecution was good, God would have left Peter in jail. But we need to change the laws for the church, for evangelists, that people can hear the gospel, for the Bibles to get in, for people to get trained. So that is very important, and we need freedom. We need even freedom to stand for our own freedom to share the gospel in Europe. Freedom of expression is very crucial today, and evangelism is part of the freedom of expression. We have the freedom to impart our opinion and also expression, and this is taken away through blasphemy laws.

Don [01:06:59]:
Yeah.

Kamal [01:07:00]:
And so we need freedom for that. We start with the freedom of thought and conscience and belief and freedom of association. For our brothers and sisters in these countries.

Don [01:07:14]:
So, a last word. Any final— you've done a very good appeal to get involved. Any final reflection before we wind up?

Kamal [01:07:27]:
I mean, we should not be discouraged. I mean, God is able to change the situation. The important thing is really to hear God's voice in this issue and we need to stand for truth.

Don [01:07:50]:
Yeah.

Kamal [01:07:52]:
And we as Christians, we really need to stand for justice and these laws are unjust. They are not treating people equally. It is not giving freedom for our brothers and sisters to exist in these countries. And we need together to stand to see these laws change. Start by praying, fasting, and then see what God—

Don [01:08:22]:
Leads you to do.

Kamal [01:08:23]:
And we have in our website, actually, how we can get involved. Look at some of the things in the website and follow these. Look at these countries where it is applying death sentence, look at these countries. We have a map which shows this. Share this map in your social media accounts and also share it in your church. Pray for a change for this, pray for these brothers and sisters who are in prison right now. There are 11 inside Libya that they will be released, and their situation is not easy. They are even afraid—

Don [01:09:07]:
We will put whatever links you send me in the show notes so people can click on things and go visit. So thank you for sharing this burden, this vision. It's long overdue, and I pray that even this little podcast might help turn the tide. Thank you for sharing.

Kamal [01:09:31]:
Thank you.

Don [01:09:32]:
I really appreciate it.

Kamal [01:09:33]:
Thank you.

Don [01:09:33]:
God bless you.

Kamal [01:09:34]:
God bless you too, and God bless the listeners.

Don [01:09:38]:
Well, I enjoyed the conversation with Brother Kamal. I found him to be a humble man of God with a big heart. For Muslims and for the people of God who come out of Islam. This activity that he is involved in, in trying to promote human rights among Muslims and Muslim nations, is a spiritual fight. Just as I was preparing to do this, editing this video, I went to his website and discovered that it had been taken over by a Japanese cosmetics company. This is spiritual warfare. Even his website is under attack. So I ask you to pray for Kamal, maybe get involved, look at the show notes and see what you can do to help promote human rights in Muslim nations. Thank you for listening for another episode of the Reflexio Podcast. I encourage you to let your friends know about it, give it a thumbs up, make some comments. The more you do that, the more people will be able to tune into these conversations with God's people around the world.