Peter Macharia’s Apostolic work among Muslims in Sudan, Djibouti, and Coastal Kenya

Don [00:00:01]:
Hi, this is Don Little, the host of the Reflexio podcast. In this episode, we're going to have a conversation with Peter. I actually recorded this conversation with him in Kenya last fall. I've known Peter for almost 10 years now. When I first went to Kenya, a worker colleague there who knew him well said, you must meet Peter, And out of that, I was able to go down to the coast of Kenya several times. We did a whole week conference on discipleship, and he brought in 100 of his coworkers and friends from across the coastal works. I've been to visit him several times since. And in this interview, we talk about his early life, his time in Sudan as a single missionary. Then when he was married, he went to Djibouti and was there something like 7 years, and the challenges they faced and the intense persecution and the way God protected them. Then we shift to his more recent ministry along the coast of Kenya and the kind of church planting and ministry he's doing there. We also talk a little bit about the value that he has found in being able to do theological education remotely without having to leave his ministry place. And he's actually completed a master's and is working on a PhD now through connections that I made for him. Peter is a remarkable man of God, a very humble man, and he is a motivator and inspirer for young men and women who are reaching out to Muslims in the coast of Kenya. And I think you will find this a fascinating conversation, and I'm glad I can introduce you to my friend Peter.

Don [00:01:50]:
So Peter, it's great to be with you here in Kenya, and welcome. To the Reflexio Podcast.

Peter Macharia [00:01:56]:
Well, thanks, Professor Don.

Don [00:01:58]:
Just call me Don.

Peter [00:01:59]:
Okay.

Don [00:02:02]:
We've known each other for quite a while, but people watching this probably don't know you. So could you maybe just tell a little of your story, your background, and introduce yourself a bit?

Peter [00:02:13]:
Yeah.

Peter [00:02:15]:
This is Peter Macharia. And Peter Macharia Yeah, Kenyan, coming from central Kenya. I got saved early 1990s.

Don [00:02:30]:
Okay.

Peter [00:02:31]:
It was dramatic.

Don [00:02:32]:
You were young? What, were you a teenager?

Peter [00:02:34]:
I was a teenager.

Peter [00:02:36]:
And it was dramatic because I was drunk.

Don [00:02:40]:
Oh my, I haven't heard this story.

Peter [00:02:42]:
Let's hear it. Midnight, I had asked some young men to pray that Satan would leave me home.

Don [00:02:56]:
Would leave you alone?

Peter [00:02:58]:
Lead me home.

Don [00:02:59]:
Okay.

Peter [00:02:59]:
Tell me to move my place. And midnight, a leopard from nowhere appeared. And yeah, I was drunk, but I became sober. Yeah, and that's the day I promised God, God, from today I surrender my life unto you.

Don [00:03:27]:
So you were raised in a Christian environment, but you had wandered away from it?

Peter [00:03:31]:
It was a mixture of Christianity and Kikuyu. Traditions.

Don [00:03:39]:
Okay.

Peter [00:03:39]:
It's more of ATR, but you could have the blanket of Christianity.

Don [00:03:44]:
Yes.

Peter [00:03:45]:
Yeah.

Don [00:03:46]:
Okay.

Peter [00:03:46]:
Yeah.

Don [00:03:48]:
Okay, and then what happened after your encounter?

Peter [00:03:51]:
Yeah, after that, I showed up in a church that is Africa United Church that I'm a member till today.

Don [00:04:00]:
Wow. Okay.

Peter [00:04:01]:
So that's how I became a member.

Don [00:04:03]:
Yeah.

Peter [00:04:04]:
When I came there. Baptized. And yeah, I'm a member of African Union Church by baptism.

Don [00:04:12]:
And did people take you in hand and disciple you and train you, or was it sort of a lonely thing in the beginning?

Peter [00:04:19]:
African Union Church has a way of the way they approach discipleship. Once you confess that Jesus He's my Savior.

Don [00:04:32]:
Yes.

Peter [00:04:33]:
They take you through what they call catechism.

Don [00:04:36]:
Catechism.

Peter [00:04:37]:
Catechism. That is like questions and answers.

Don [00:04:40]:
Yeah.

Peter [00:04:40]:
Which takes like a year.

Don [00:04:41]:
Okay.

Peter [00:04:42]:
So these are questions about God.

Don [00:04:44]:
Is it in a small group or one-on-one?

Peter [00:04:46]:
It can be a group of, okay, if it's maybe like 10 people who have confessed. Right. Or maybe there are 5. That group will be prepared for one year for baptism. So you go through these questions and then you ask them. If you answer them correctly, Okay. Then you are now baptized.

Don [00:05:07]:
So is it focused on understanding the Christian faith or also does it deal with living the Christian faith?

Peter [00:05:15]:
Mostly it is theological questions. Actually, it could be like more of like a Bible school structure. These are theological questions about God, about Jesus, about eschatology, demonology, geology, such stuff. So you go through and if you answer correctly, so to me it's more of a mental exercise. Okay. It's more of a mental exercise. Yeah, yeah, mental ascent.

Don [00:05:39]:
Yeah.

Peter [00:05:40]:
And then if you can answer them correctly, then you can be baptized. And once you are baptized, now you become a full member of the church. You can participate in the Holy Communion.

Don [00:05:51]:
Right. And that's what you did then?

Peter [00:05:53]:
That's what happened to me.

Don [00:05:54]:
You were 16 or something when you were baptized?

Peter [00:05:56]:
Yeah, I could be maybe 18, 18 there. Okay. Yeah.

Don [00:06:00]:
Okay, and so how did God— I mean, tell us a bit more. You came to faith, I assume you went to university or college or something afterwards, or was that later?

Peter [00:06:13]:
Actually, after, after salvation, I became a member of a congregation being active in Christian Youth in Action. That's what we call it in African Methodist Church.

Don [00:06:26]:
Okay.

Peter [00:06:27]:
And then after like 2 years, I decided to join theological school, a Bible school.

Don [00:06:34]:
Okay.

Peter [00:06:35]:
So I went to Mombasa. It is a 4-year theological education. And during my second year in Bible school, there was again something dramatic that happened.

Don [00:06:48]:
Okay.

Peter [00:06:49]:
That's when I got exposed to Muslims. And that's how my burden to engage Muslims started.

Don [00:07:00]:
Did you just meet some people in the community, or was it some Christian ministry telling you about Muslims?

Peter [00:07:08]:
How did— Two things happened. We used to pray and fast on Saturdays, and that was very personal. Another student friend of mine and myself, so we used to fast. Saturdays. So this particular day, we were praying, we were fasting, and then a guy around that age showed up. And this guy was a Muslim, okay, and he was going through depression, so he wanted to commit suicide.

Don [00:07:37]:
Wow.

Peter [00:07:38]:
And that's how we engaged him. I didn't have knowledge of how to approach Muslims, but it was very direct. And with that, conversation, he surrendered to Jesus.

Don [00:07:50]:
Right in that conversation?

Peter [00:07:51]:
Yes.

Don [00:07:51]:
Wow.

Peter [00:07:52]:
And then from there, I was following up in his home. So that incident really touched me, and I felt like it's possible for these people to accept Jesus. Then the second incident, I used to visit Coast General Hospital as a school ministry, and I found this woman wearing Islamic attire, hijab, holding a namaz, and she was crying. And then I wanted to know what's happening because now already I have developed a burden for Muslims.

Don [00:08:27]:
Right.

Peter [00:08:27]:
And then she said to me, well, my father is in this hospital and I cannot access because the nurse in charge has refused. It's not the time to see the patients.

Don [00:08:41]:
She couldn't visit him.

Peter [00:08:42]:
Yes, couldn't visit. So, and then I said, can you tell me where she is, where the dad is? And then I took the damals and I gave the old man porridge until he got enough. And then I brought damals to this Muslim lady. Then she said, well, can you visit our family? So I got invitation to visit her family.

Don [00:09:06]:
Yes.

Peter [00:09:06]:
And in that family A young man, very young, could be maybe he was a teenage, right? He accepted Jesus. Yeah, after first visit, after several visits, he accepted Jesus. And now I became a frequent visitor in that home, discipling this young man. But I didn't know the young man was epileptic.

Don [00:09:32]:
Who's epileptic?

Peter [00:09:33]:
Epileptic. He has— so one day He collapsed when he was taking a shower. He died? Yes. And then I saw a big group of Muslims coming to Bible school, and then they said, well, this young man had accepted Jesus, so we cannot touch his body. He's a Christian. So actually, that was my first time in my life to go to a mortuary. So I took the young man, yes, to the mortuary, and then informed the school administration. And from there, we, we prepared the burial. We buried the boy at a Christian cemetery in Mombasa. It was a big burial. The family was just at a distance watching.

Don [00:10:26]:
They were there.

Peter [00:10:28]:
They came, but they didn't interfere.

Don [00:10:30]:
Right.

Peter [00:10:31]:
So with those two incidents, I felt like, well, after graduation, I don't think I'll do anything else. I think my life will be just with Muslims. So when I graduated, I just— I graduated in '87 after 4 years, and then I worked with the church for only 1 year as a pastor. From there, I asked the church, can you release me? To go to mission field.

Don [00:10:57]:
Okay.

Peter [00:10:58]:
And that's how I moved to Northern Kenya to do mission work.

Don [00:11:03]:
Among Muslims?

Peter [00:11:04]:
Among Muslims.

Don [00:11:05]:
So you started in Northern Kenya?

Peter [00:11:06]:
Northern Kenya. That was my first field, Northern Kenya.

Don [00:11:10]:
You do a couple of years there? How long?

Peter [00:11:12]:
I stayed for 1 year. Unfortunately, I did not have cross-cultural training.

Don [00:11:20]:
Right.

Peter [00:11:21]:
So what I wanted to plant, the kind of a church I wanted to establish among Muslims, is the very church I was brought up in.

Don [00:11:31]:
Replicate what you know.

Peter [00:11:33]:
A friend, a great man, well known, he came to me and said, well, I'm recommending you join a cross-cultural training. Yeah. So that's how I moved to missionary college for 2 years training in cross-cultural.

Don [00:11:52]:
And that's a missionary school run by the denomination?

Peter [00:11:55]:
Yes, yes, it's a NIC a missionary college, preparing pastors to be missionaries. So it's for cross-cultural. So I was there for 3 years, and it was clear to me even for those 3 years that I wanted to read anything written on Islam because my heart was only for Muslims. Actually, those days I wanted to go to Egypt. I was trying to see a way to go to Egypt. I was learning, I was trying to learn some Arabic. But it didn't work. So somebody came when I was finishing the missionary college and said, well, Sudan is very needy. And that's how I moved to Sudan.

Don [00:12:36]:
Was it what is now Sudan or was it the northern part?

Peter [00:12:39]:
That's southern Sudan. It's not northern Sudan. And I didn't understand. I thought it would be like Mombasa. I thought it would be an Islamic territory. But I realized, yeah, these are people influenced by Islam, but they are practicing more of an African traditional religion.

Don [00:13:00]:
Yes.

Peter [00:13:01]:
We were more of animists.

Don [00:13:02]:
It wasn't the Muslim part?

Peter [00:13:03]:
No, it was not Muslim part. But I realized, well, because it was time of war between South and North, I felt like this was a preparation ground. It was tough with landmines, random shooting, bombardments. So I escaped all these things. It was very dangerous.

Don [00:13:24]:
You were still single at this point?

Peter [00:13:25]:
I was single.

Don [00:13:26]:
Yes.

Peter [00:13:26]:
I had not yet married.

Don [00:13:28]:
Yeah.

Peter [00:13:28]:
Yeah.

Don [00:13:30]:
Was there any significant things that God taught you during that year in Sudan, that period in Sudan, that shaped you? Any significant lessons?

Peter [00:13:40]:
Yes, I think most of the biggest lessons about the discipleship I learned in Sudan that I will never forget.

Don [00:13:49]:
Can you give an example?

Peter [00:13:51]:
Well, I established a theological school for 3 years.

Don [00:13:56]:
Yes.

Peter [00:13:56]:
But the curriculum was very Western.

Don [00:13:59]:
Okay.

Peter [00:14:00]:
So it was only— it was addressing issues that we—

Don [00:14:04]:
of the West.

Peter [00:14:05]:
Of the West.

Don [00:14:06]:
Yes.

Peter [00:14:06]:
And for example, I teach these students, they were very, very bright, performing very well in the class, getting A's. But one time, this young man come to me I said, well, Abuna, which means father, yeah, I have found gold in the river, and this is a secret, so please don't mention to anybody, but I want you to help me with 500 shillings so they can buy a goat. Then I was asking, I don't understand. The connection he put and the gold layer. And later I discovered he wanted to buy this he-goat because he did not touch the gold. He left the gold right there. So he wanted to get this he-goat, slaughter, pour the blood in the river to please the god who lives in the river so that he can get the gold and have a peaceful road.

Don [00:15:12]:
So he was a theological student.

Peter [00:15:14]:
This was a third-year student, but passing exams very well. But I realized my curriculum did not address his issues. Wow. And such, those are very many issues that I came across. So they shaped my way of thinking.

Don [00:15:34]:
How do you form people? It's not just stuff in your head.

Peter [00:15:39]:
Actually, I realized there is two kind of curriculums. There's a stated curriculum that's very small, Western, and then there is a hidden curriculum. You don't teach it, you discover that curriculum that focuses on witchcraft, magics, dreams, visions, and such things.

Don [00:16:00]:
And did, by the time, how long were you in Sudan?

Peter [00:16:02]:
3 years?

Don [00:16:03]:
4 years.

Peter [00:16:03]:
Yes.

Don [00:16:04]:
By the time you left, were you starting to see some transformations in some of your students? Because—

Peter [00:16:10]:
yeah, I left this— they were 12 of them students, and I left them, all of them evangelists capable of discipling other communities.

Don [00:16:19]:
So not only were they discipled, but they learned how to disciple others.

Peter [00:16:24]:
I hope if I go there, I'll find some of the results, some of the fruits. Yes. Yeah.

Don [00:16:30]:
Wow.

Peter [00:16:31]:
Yeah.

Don [00:16:31]:
And then God led you away from Sudan? Or was it the mission that moved you?

Peter [00:16:36]:
I felt like my time was over after the graduation. Actually, one day when we did this kind of graduation of these 12 students, I said goodbye to them. And I thought, at this longer time, I can move to the hardest part that is totally unreached.

Don [00:16:54]:
Okay.

Peter [00:16:54]:
And this time, towards my end of my mission there, I got married.

Don [00:16:59]:
Okay.

Peter [00:17:00]:
To Esther.

Don [00:17:01]:
Did you know— where did you know her from?

Peter [00:17:04]:
We come from the same village, so we knew each other.

Don [00:17:07]:
Okay.

Peter [00:17:07]:
We were dating for all these years.

Don [00:17:09]:
So your name was?

Peter [00:17:10]:
Esther.

Don [00:17:10]:
Esther.

Peter [00:17:11]:
Yeah. So Esther and I, we again prayed and fasted and asked God to guide us to the next field. Right. And we are asking ourselves, Where is the need? Where can you find the greatest need? And that's how we came about Somali people. We felt like we need to engage Somali people. That's how we moved to Nairobi from Sudan to Nairobi to work with Somalis in Nairobi, Somalis in a place called Eastleigh.

Don [00:17:44]:
Eastleigh?

Peter [00:17:44]:
Yeah.

Don [00:17:44]:
Okay.

Peter [00:17:45]:
So we lived there, started a business. Actually, I heard of seeing some Jews there. Yeah, and we got to know— we also enrolled in a Somali language school. So we were learning Somali language, Somali culture. Yeah, that was great, interacting with them, getting to know them.

Don [00:18:06]:
How did you say you learned the language?

Peter [00:18:08]:
Yeah, we learned the Somali language for 2 good years.

Don [00:18:12]:
Were there some fruit there? How did things go with people?

Peter [00:18:14]:
I cannot talk of fruit that for 2 years. As maybe people coming to Jesus.

Don [00:18:20]:
Right.

Peter [00:18:20]:
Although we were discipling people that maybe had come to Jesus through other ministries.

Don [00:18:25]:
Right.

Peter [00:18:25]:
But the benefit I can say is that I got to know the language and the culture of Somalis. And that prepared me to go to the next step.

Don [00:18:37]:
Which was?

Peter [00:18:39]:
To go to the Horn of Africa. So I moved to Horn of Africa. Where Somalis, we are 60%.

Don [00:18:47]:
Yes.

Peter [00:18:48]:
And 30% Afar community that is found in Ethiopia, Eritrea, and Somalia.

Don [00:18:55]:
Yeah.

Peter [00:18:56]:
And also Arabs, 10%. So we lived among Somalis.

Don [00:19:01]:
In?

Don [00:19:02]:
Djibouti.

Peter [00:19:04]:
Djibouti. Yes.

Don [00:19:04]:
Did you learn French then?

Peter [00:19:05]:
No, I didn't want to.

Don [00:19:08]:
You were interested in Somali.

Peter [00:19:08]:
I wanted Somali. Even Afar language is not learned. Okay, I know a bit of Arabic because of being in Sudan.

Don [00:19:14]:
Right.

Peter [00:19:15]:
But I concentrated in the Somali language. Wow. Yeah.

Don [00:19:21]:
How long were you in Djibouti?

Peter [00:19:22]:
Well, we were there for 7 good years.

Don [00:19:25]:
7 good years.

Peter [00:19:26]:
Yeah.

Don [00:19:27]:
Can you share a highlight or two or a struggle, something?

Peter [00:19:33]:
Yeah, no doubt the country is a small country.

Don [00:19:36]:
Yeah.

Peter [00:19:37]:
And I realized our identity It was very difficult when it comes to the issues of identity. With time they got to know what we were doing and I received threats many times. There were so many threats.

Don [00:19:55]:
Threats.

Peter [00:19:56]:
And of course one time we were attacked, the house was attacked. A number of times there were some those kind of attacks.

Don [00:20:05]:
So So the community was not happy with having a missionary among them?

Peter [00:20:10]:
The community, like, people were very friendly, but they would think of more religious leaders.

Don [00:20:16]:
Okay.

Peter [00:20:18]:
The communities, like, we were getting along well with them, people were friendly, and they really wanted to hear about, you know, the other side of it. Maybe the Christianity, they wanted to hear about Christianity also. They were asking many questions. But religious leaders were not happy that people were converting. So one day I remember 6 guys came to our house. It was a time of Ramadan, and they talked to me harshly in French. I told them, well, I don't understand French, can you speak to me in Somali? So they talked in Somali language. They said, where is the month of Ramadan? And we are going to finish you this time. We are going to burn this house also. And kind of, okay, with all the threats that I had received before, I think this time around fear entered my heart. And because there was fellowship that was coming to my house 2 times in a week, right? So I called the guys, I said, guys, let's stop this fellowship.

Don [00:21:26]:
Don't come now.

Peter [00:21:27]:
Don't come. And after 3 days, a guy that I was discipling, he was older than me, he was married, he came to me. And to me, it's like he was a prophet. He came to me and then we got somewhere private. He said to me, Reason, in our Somali culture we have many stories and one story is a story of a tortoise. Tortoise did not have that shell that it has today.

Don [00:22:07]:
What's the word you're saying?

Peter [00:22:08]:
Tortoise.

Don [00:22:09]:
Tortoise, yeah.

Peter [00:22:10]:
It did not have that shell that it has today.

Don [00:22:13]:
Okay.

Peter [00:22:14]:
And all the animals of the world did not like it. So one time they had a conference and they agreed that tomorrow morning we'll go and eat turtles. Okay. In that meeting, fox was there and left very quickly and they went to turtles and see if turtles were— we are coming from a conference and all of us who were there, all the animals of the world, and we have agreed that tomorrow morning We are coming to meet you.

Don [00:22:51]:
Okay.

Peter [00:22:52]:
Then the tortoise asked Fox, in that conference, in that meeting of yours, was God present? Did you see God? That meeting. And then Fox was like, well, he said God was absent. Then the tortoise said, well, then I don't care. And then early in the morning, God brought that shell and covered tortoises.

Don [00:23:20]:
Okay.

Peter [00:23:21]:
So when these animals arrived, they tried to get tortoises, but they could not get tortoises. Yes. So this guy, Conical Bed, it's a country small, everybody knows him, and one thing that is evident, God is with you. So that evening I called the leaders of the fellowship and said, guys, let's continue. Yeah, God is protecting you. Yeah, to me, I took those words like really coming from God and that I really needed to hear such assurance.

Don [00:24:03]:
Yeah, I was invited to go to Djibouti. I went to Ethiopia earlier this year, and my friend who has people in Djibouti working with Muslims said, "Come, they've read your book on discipleship, and they would like you to teach." And I said, "I'll consider it." But in the end, I had a surgery earlier this year, and I thought, "I can't travel all the way." But one day I hope to go to Djibouti and encourage these workers.

Peter [00:24:37]:
I believe you will be an encouragement.

Don [00:24:40]:
Yeah. And that's a while ago now since you left.

Peter [00:24:45]:
Yeah.

Don [00:24:45]:
Do you get news still about what's going on? Do you stay in touch?

Peter [00:24:48]:
Yeah, yeah, I'm in touch. And yeah, I know the people who are leading the fellowships there. We're in touch.

Don [00:24:54]:
Okay.

Peter [00:24:55]:
And also some good friends, Somalis from Kenya, that are leading the fellowships here in Kenya.

Don [00:25:01]:
Okay.

Peter [00:25:01]:
They have visited the place.

Don [00:25:02]:
Yeah.

Peter [00:25:02]:
And they bring me the news also.

Don [00:25:04]:
Right. So things are going okay? Yeah, yeah.

Peter [00:25:06]:
Seems, you know, there's struggles, but The church is still moving on.

Don [00:25:13]:
Okay. Is there more churches being planted around the area?

Peter [00:25:17]:
I don't know of many churches, but I know there are people who are very strong, okay, still following Jesus. There are people that are really, yeah, solid for Jesus.

Don [00:25:29]:
Yeah.

Don [00:25:29]:
So, just to shift gears a little bit, by this time, how many children— you were there 7 years, you said?

Peter [00:25:38]:
Yeah.

Don [00:25:39]:
By the time you left, how many children did you have?

Peter [00:25:41]:
When I entered the Kalmaz country with one child, I left with two.

Don [00:25:47]:
Okay.

Peter [00:25:47]:
Today I have three. Okay. So the way I see my children is like one is from Sudan, firstborn. Secondborn is a devotee. And the thirdborn, Kenyan.

Don [00:26:00]:
But they all have Kenyan passports.

Peter [00:26:01]:
Oh, no doubt. They are Kenyans. Because only they have that sort of influence for those countries.

Don [00:26:06]:
So what was it like for for your wife, for Esther, and the children in Djibouti when they were very young?

Peter [00:26:13]:
Yeah, it was not easy for us as a family because the country is a Francophone, they speak French, right? And we knew we would not be there forever. And here we have our child who was about to join school, so it was a struggle to find a good school suitable for him. And also with Esther, Esther had not done cross-cultural training like myself, but now with experience in Kenya with the Somali Ministry that helped for 2 years, and then in that country practically now, it was also very practical. So she was learning how to, yeah, to do mission cross-culturally. It was really struggle, but she got it. Yeah.

Don [00:27:05]:
So she was really engaged.

Peter [00:27:06]:
Oh yes, she learned language very well. And she engaged women very well. She was very effective. Yeah, no doubt.

Don [00:27:15]:
She's a wonderful lady.

Peter [00:27:16]:
Yeah.

Don [00:27:17]:
I've had a chance to get to know her some. Yeah. Wow. So, I mean, don't have to go through every detail of your life, but then you Left there and you ended up teaching for a little time, right? Or was that after people—

Peter [00:27:31]:
When I left Horn of Africa, I came to College of Mission, that is in Calgary, to teach. So I taught there for 3 years. This college accepts pastors, those who have graduated from theological schools, but they have maybe a burden of the calling. To go to Muslim or maybe to cross-cultural ministries.

Don [00:27:56]:
Right.

Peter [00:27:57]:
So I was preparing them, yeah, for 3 years.

Don [00:28:01]:
Right.

Peter [00:28:02]:
And I think it was a good experience with students, and I can see the students that I prepared that time, they are very active in the field.

Don [00:28:16]:
They still at it, still going strong?

Peter [00:28:18]:
Yes. Yeah, and especially my emphasis on Islam. So I wanted to see students moving from more of animistic cultures, you know, to more of Islam. And I have seen some students even marrying among Muslims.

Don [00:28:38]:
But then God called you away again.

Peter [00:28:41]:
Again, after 3 years, I thought this is not enough because I think there was so much limited in a class setting, right? So I felt like I'll get to be in a marketplace, I'll get to be in an open place where I can interact with anybody, yeah, and prepare ordinary people to reach out, whether they are teachers, nurses, house girls, yeah, mechanics, carpenters, right? So that's how I moved to Mombasa.

Don [00:29:12]:
Okay. Yes. Back to the place where you went to college.

Peter [00:29:15]:
Exactly.

Don [00:29:16]:
I hadn't connected that before, that you'd been to college there.

Peter [00:29:22]:
So I moved to Mombasa and we realized the majority of the remaining unreached Muslim people groups are found either in northeastern Kenya or coastal Kenya.

Don [00:29:41]:
Okay.

Peter [00:29:42]:
So we started a network. So we tried to bring missionaries together or anybody interested in cross-cultural together to see how we can learn from each other, how we can encourage each other, right? And then concentrate on these remaining unreached Muslim people groups.

Don [00:30:08]:
And that's where I started to visit you. Yes. This is not about me, so we don't have to go there, but can you just sort of give a little bit of a description of what God's done in those— how many years? 10 years?

Peter [00:30:26]:
8 years.

Don [00:30:29]:
So what's happened in this network?

Peter [00:30:32]:
Well, we We moved to a place we call Amani Acres. And Amani Acres became like an aging to help East Africa Swahili coastal network.

Don [00:30:45]:
So Amani Acres, for those of you who don't know, is like a campground facility right up against the ocean.

Peter [00:30:52]:
Yes. And in this place, we decided to use a very different approach to Muslims.

Don [00:31:04]:
Okay.

Peter [00:31:04]:
And our approach, we want to bring families together. So we opened a place for young people to come for 5 things.

Don [00:31:17]:
Okay.

Peter [00:31:18]:
Number 1 is self-awareness. They come for a program on Sunday that starts at 9 in the morning till 5 in the evening. And we have a program, we call it SWAT, that is self-awareness. So this self-awareness is to help them know themselves and know others. And it is not lecture, it is more of interactive, it is interactive.

Don [00:31:43]:
And this is with youth or young adults?

Peter [00:31:45]:
Young adults, that is from actually from 9 years to whatever age, high schools.

Don [00:31:52]:
Okay.

Peter [00:31:53]:
So then when we are done with this kind of self-awareness, we move to another thing, something we call Wisdom Discovery Studies. It's more like the Bible study, but Wisdom Discovery Studies.

Don [00:32:07]:
Right.

Peter [00:32:08]:
So we take scripture, we print out a passage, and then it's a discovery Bible study.

Don [00:32:14]:
Okay.

Peter [00:32:15]:
So we formulate some questions, and then we divide people into groups, and then they have a secretary, and then they have a person to present. And then after they discuss for a few minutes, they come together, they discuss in a bigger group, and they memorize, they paraphrase. And then after that, we have another one we call academics. Academic is more motivating because they are all students. We motivate them to love education. And then after that, we have also, we have talents. We believe everybody who is coming to us should have a talent. We help them discover their talent and we develop them, develop their talents, right? It could be music, could be drama, could be visual art, all those kind of talents. Journalism. Yeah, journalism talents. So we help them to develop this talent, and then we conclude the program with sports. That's having fun. So that's how we do every Sunday. And then we don't encourage anybody who belong to church to come. So it should be people who are Muslims. And every first week, every first Sunday of the month, we encourage them to come with their parents.

Don [00:33:36]:
Okay.

Peter [00:33:37]:
Because we want to work with families.

Don [00:33:38]:
Right.

Peter [00:33:40]:
So that's what we have been doing. And, uh, To me, if today I happen to be in Saudi Arabia, I think I would do the same thing.

Don [00:33:52]:
So that's the program, if you like, of outreach to the community across the street. Right. But in addition to that, you've been motivating and training and equipping people to go up and down the coast to other unreached Muslim tribes.

Peter [00:34:10]:
Yeah. So this is now Amalekites, and of course those who are interested, if we see People who are interested to know more about scriptures, we have Friday. Friday is our day of prayers and fasting, and in the evening we have a fellowship, a very informal fellowship. We read scriptures, we sing songs, we encourage one another. And when we get these young people that feel God is calling them to outreach, especially to Muslim communities.

Peter [00:34:46]:
We prefer them to come and see what we are doing at Mani Acrez, they be there for internship, so that now when we deploy them in those communities that are unreached, they can try to see how they can approach the same way we are approaching. It is not threatening the way we are approaching it at Amani Acres.

Peter [00:35:05]:
So through that, we have got so many interns They come and stay with us for 2 years, maybe 6 months, right? And we recommend after 2 years, we ask them, now can you choose the community that you feel like you are called to? And from there they move to communities and they do the same thing. It is going on well. So it is—

Don [00:35:27]:
they do similar kind of outreach?

Peter [00:35:30]:
Yeah, they're not returning, but engaging people effectively. Yeah. Yeah, they're getting fruits through that.

Don [00:35:37]:
So I'm just interested because part of the podcast is thinking about missiology and how we do practice.

Peter [00:35:47]:
Yes.

Don [00:35:47]:
I've observed instead of trying to form little churches along the thing, you're doing like all the believers are one regional fellowship. Is that at all accurate?

Peter [00:36:01]:
Come again?

Don [00:36:02]:
The believers that are coming to faith in these communities, you get them together on the acre sometimes and they see themselves as one with each other from different communities, even different tribal backgrounds.

Peter [00:36:15]:
Yeah, although they are three, as long as they are coming from that background, Islamic, okay, but regardless of their tribes, we want to see them in one fellowship, learning from each other and encouraging each other instead of separating like this is just Somali, this is Abiyu, this is Swahili, this is Arabs. We prefer to see them in one group.

Don [00:36:37]:
And it's working? People—

Peter [00:36:38]:
it works well, especially when they are smaller communities. We don't— we actually, we normally use a— we have a saying that we gather to scatter. So we don't want to have a big group at a time because we prefer people to be in small, small groups.

Don [00:36:55]:
Can you Flesh that out a bit more, what that looked like, to gather, to scatter?

Peter [00:37:00]:
The idea is you gather for a short time to be scattered. And I like the analogy of manure. So when you bring manure, the cow dung, you push together, it stinks and it's bad, you know, it's not very good. But when you scatter, it is helpful. So that's the same thing I see when you put Bring us just together, other issues will be just coming up now, like maybe infighting, okay? But when you scatter them, they use their gifts, you discover where they are gifted, right? And then they can use their gifts to other places, they can be light and salt to where the need is instead of being just one place. So you prefer smaller groups. Fewer people.

Don [00:37:49]:
So one thing I've observed the way you lead this ministry is that you put a lot of emphasis on raising up young people in ministry. You trust them with tasks. You expect a lot of them. And you're having these 22-year-olds, 23-year-olds taking on leadership. Can you tell me more about that and why you do it that way?

Peter [00:38:18]:
Yeah, I kind of, uh, when I look scriptures, it's like people who made big difference in the world. When you think of people like Joseph, like Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach, Abednego, look at all these people were young. It could be that, yes, it could be me from 18 years Okay, and I believe these people, they are very, they are very resourceful. And yes, they have their— there is a speed, okay, that we can help them, we can shape them. But I think we cannot ignore this generation. To me, I have invested in this generation. All the leaders that I have, they are maybe 28 or 29 years and beyond. The oldest could be 29. And I have seen them growing from the age 18, getting married. I have seen these couples and they have many years to serve. And I can see their zeal, the passion, and also the technology. When it comes to technology, I cannot catch up with the way they are in technology. They are very fast.

Don [00:39:41]:
Yeah.

Peter [00:39:42]:
So I feel like I can bring some wisdom in whatever they are doing, but on their part, they are very brilliant, okay, and we cannot ignore that. So that's why I feel like investing in these young people, also bearing in mind that Jesus also was young, okay. Yeah.

Don [00:40:02]:
And so the 27-year-olds are also investing in 18-year-olds in helping raise them up.

Peter [00:40:07]:
What's happened is I risked, I invested so heavily. Every Saturday, I have been for years, I've been having a leadership meeting. I call it leadership formation for around 3 hours.

Don [00:40:21]:
Saturday mornings?

Peter [00:40:22]:
Saturday evenings. That is from 6:30 all the way to 9:30, having this kind of leadership formation with around 14 leaders. Wow. I have done it for years. These leaders, I asked them, hey, you have seen what I've done with you, so what I'm requesting now, can you do to others? So with that, they have formed another group that's called Gen Z. These are the young leaders, and they are around 12 leaders that are now very capable. They are more capable than this generation that I trained. And they are doing wonders. So I see it's possible to delegate. Yes, it's risky, but I think I would prefer to risk than just to hold on to power for long.

Don [00:41:15]:
Yeah. Just a different direction. I've been down to visit Amani Acres, as you know, quite a few times. You don't live a life of luxury down there. Are there some, like with Esther or with you, are there times that have been tough, some things that you want to share about some of the challenges that you face in doing this ministry? It seems like you work with all these young people, but you don't get a whole lot of support from your leaders above you. Any comments on what it's been like?

Peter [00:41:55]:
Yeah, I think since my time in Sudan, where my journey to discipleship got shaped, I decided, or maybe I have believed, I have conviction that there is no way you can separate discipleship and hospitality. Okay. So I decided to open my house. My house, there's no privacy. People come in.

Don [00:42:20]:
Obviously Esther has to agree, right?

Peter [00:42:23]:
Yeah, no doubt. As a family now, okay. And also with my children, they have to try to be also willing to have people in our house every time. Yeah, there's no appointment. I don't have an office. My office is just under the tree. I sit there, people come. And whenever people come there, we have to have a cup of tea or there is Lunch or dinner, you have to share.

Don [00:42:51]:
Yes.

Peter [00:42:53]:
So I realized there is no other way to do discipleship unless I open, not just open my heart, but open my home, my house. This is extremely expensive in terms of emotion, finances. It is stressful, no doubt, because the, the few calls that you get, you cannot save in any way. It has again to go back to the very people that you are engaging. But again, maybe that's the only way we can be able to see disciples being made, in that kind of inconvenience. We are inconvenienced. Yeah. Okay, it's not easy, but again, we realize that's the only way life is happening.

Don [00:43:48]:
Right.

Peter [00:43:50]:
We decided to speak. For us, it's not really a problem. It's kind of life to life.

Don [00:43:55]:
Life on life.

Peter [00:43:55]:
Yeah.

Don [00:43:56]:
So how do your kids do in the middle of this? Are they doing okay? They're flourishing? Or has it been tough for them sometimes, never having just mom and dad?

Peter [00:44:06]:
I don't think It has been easy for them, yeah, and they have voiced it out sometimes. Like, we need time as just a nuclear family. We hope that every time we will be having vacations like December to rest as a family, and sometimes something doesn't work because for us to rest, it has to be upcountry, yeah, away from the priests there. But again, When you do the calculation of how much do you need to take the whole family out for maybe Christmas for a month and then get back there, and then January they need to go back to school, sometimes it's not possible. So at the end of the day, you realize, yeah, I really appreciate my children that they have put up with us, my wife and I.

Don [00:44:59]:
These crazy mom and dads who do crazy things.

Peter [00:45:01]:
Yes, but one thing I love is one of my birthdays, I'll never forget my firstborn say, Dad, I appreciate the way you're a man of people. I wish also I'll be a man of people. Thank you. So I felt like, well, I hope they can learn something positive. That we find joy not in accumulating things or being very wealthy, but being in service for God.

Don [00:45:42]:
Just another topic comes to mind, and that is, not long after we met, I think we met and we talked again in Thailand at a conference. Yes. You expressed a desire to do further education in mission theology, but you didn't want to have to travel to Nairobi all the time or have to leave your ministry.

Peter [00:46:08]:
Yes.

Don [00:46:08]:
And it so happened that we were just setting up some online studies.

Don [00:46:12]:
Yes.

Don [00:46:12]:
But you've done an awful lot since then with no office. How do you— I mean, tell us a little about what the experience of doing online studies has been and how it's enabled you to stay engaged but keep growing?

Peter [00:46:27]:
Right. Well, I think in my life I'll never forget you, that you have come to my life, because for years— I love education. I, okay, I know God has given me great experience in the field, but for me, I had I felt like, yes, I need to have a great mind. I need to study. But every time I hear for someone to study, they have to leave the family, they have to leave what they are doing to go somewhere, maybe in the US or UK, or maybe, you know, to look for these further studies. So that has been my cry, right? Is there a university on this planet that can come where I am, okay, and equip me and test me like anybody else who has gone to US or UK, right? So the day that I met you and I expressed my, my cry, and you listened to me, and you connected me to a school that was willing, a seminary that was willing to help me where I am to do the study. To me, that was an answered prayer. Wow. And I cannot tell how that has been helpful. It has been of great help to me. Well, I love discipline, and I believe God has given me that will of disciplining myself. So I do my— with family, I do ministry, and at night I could find time to pursue my master's. And I finished my master's after maybe 2 and a half years.

Don [00:48:25]:
That's fast, for usually it takes 5 years.

Peter [00:48:28]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Without leaving my place, just being with my family. To me, That's a great blessing. And because of that, I decided to open that door for anybody working along coastline.

Don [00:48:44]:
Right.

Peter [00:48:44]:
That's in our network.

Don [00:48:45]:
Yes.

Peter [00:48:46]:
And I do that, I believe, maybe around 10 people that I have connected to the same seminary.

Don [00:48:53]:
You've had this many people taking the program or just taking courses? They're taking the same— The master's program. Yeah, the master's program. And there are some of them are still doing it?

Peter [00:49:02]:
Yeah, that's still continuing.

Don [00:49:03]:
Wow.

Peter [00:49:04]:
Yeah.

Don [00:49:04]:
That's encouraging. Yeah. I was just looking this week actually on their website and they changed the program a little bit. It's a little smaller, but it's still global. They call it Global Pastors Initiative or something.

Peter [00:49:17]:
Okay. Okay. No, I'm happy to be connected to the seminary, WBS.

Don [00:49:24]:
Yes.

Peter [00:49:25]:
And actually, I wish they know how much they have helped me to interact with the professors, to interact with the great people, yeah, great books.

Don [00:49:36]:
Yeah, so it's been a blessing. That's great.

Peter [00:49:39]:
It's a big blessing. Yeah, it's only that I have never— I didn't get time to go to, you know, to visit them. I've never gone there, right? But I wish they can be able to know how much they have really helped me.

Don [00:49:51]:
I think I mentioned this, but Benjamin Hageman and I went just once to be at their graduation.

Peter [00:49:59]:
Yeah.

Don [00:49:59]:
And it was the year you were graduating.

Peter [00:50:01]:
Oh, really?

Don [00:50:01]:
And they announced your name. Oh, gosh.

Peter [00:50:04]:
You were in the program.

Don [00:50:05]:
Are you here? No, you weren't here. But you were graduating. So that was exciting.

Peter [00:50:10]:
Yeah, that's great.

Don [00:50:10]:
That was you, the first one of the coastal people to graduate.

Peter [00:50:14]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Don [00:50:15]:
Yes.

Peter [00:50:15]:
Yeah.

Don [00:50:16]:
Yeah. And now you're continuing to study.

Peter [00:50:19]:
Yeah, after that I felt like, wow, if I can get another opportunity, maybe I don't know, you can remember. We met at, that was Dubai actually. We met in Dubai.

Don [00:50:29]:
2017, 2023.

Peter [00:50:31]:
Yeah. And then I told you again where I want to continue with the studies. Again, again you present me with Asbury. Yeah.

Don [00:50:41]:
You already presented that.

Don [00:50:41]:
Yes.

Peter [00:50:41]:
Now I'm pursuing my doctorate there.

Don [00:50:44]:
Yeah. That's so encouraging.

Peter [00:50:47]:
Yeah.

Don [00:50:47]:
Yeah. So We've got about 10 minutes left. So far we've talked mostly about the good things that God's been doing. Is there any point of struggle or vulnerability that something God took you through that was really tough period, or I don't know, depression or How has God been faithful in the tough times?

Peter [00:51:20]:
Yes, I think one I have just mentioned back in the Horn of Africa, the threats that were very normal.

Don [00:51:29]:
Right.

Peter [00:51:31]:
But I remember an incident that we didn't have finances when that thing in Horn of Africa And your support was very low? It was not fully me, we were at zero. Wow. And I took my son to school and always I used to pick him and you know Djibouti is one of the hottest countries on earth.

Don [00:52:00]:
Yes.

Peter [00:52:01]:
And the school, they normally finish schools at around 12, 12:01. So I had to pick him to take him back home.

Don [00:52:08]:
Yeah.

Peter [00:52:10]:
At this time, I could not afford just a few coins to put him on a bus, so he had to walk. It was a kind of maybe, could be, maybe 2 kilometers or 3 kilometers, and it was extremely hot, and he had to be fought.

Don [00:52:37]:
You were walking with him?

Peter [00:52:38]:
Yes, walking home.

Don [00:52:40]:
Yeah.

Peter [00:52:40]:
And he asked me for water. And there's no way I could get water.

Don [00:52:46]:
You didn't have money for water?

Peter [00:52:47]:
I didn't have money. So I kept quiet, but now my tears coming down. And then when I got home, without communicating to Esther or anybody, I just took a paper The pain. They wrote to the AC Kenya, enough is enough, I want to come home.

Don [00:53:11]:
You're done.

Peter [00:53:11]:
I'm done. And, uh, I think because they had known me for many years and with all this patience, with the fearing, they felt like this has to be something very big that has happened for him to come to this point.

Don [00:53:27]:
Yes.

Peter [00:53:29]:
So they called me and they tried to encourage me, comfort me. After like a few days, God came through, like, who called you? It's God who has called you, okay? You can only cry to God. So I started feeling again like regret. Why did I do that kind of thing? So at that time, I was really down. Could be a spiritual attack. I felt like I could not continue anymore. Yeah, that's also another incident I remember.

Don [00:54:09]:
And how did it end? Did God just give you increasing faith or He provided more resources too?

Peter [00:54:17]:
I would think more faith and also the church coming in like, we are with you, and yeah. Of course, there were also some finances that helped. And good friends called me, encouraged me. And I felt like, yeah, we can keep on going.

Don [00:54:37]:
So how, maybe about how long were you in Djibouti after this point? Another few years?

Peter [00:54:45]:
Actually, maybe it could be 3.

Don [00:54:47]:
3 more years after, yeah.

Peter [00:54:49]:
Yeah.

Don [00:54:55]:
Yeah, we haven't really talked in detail about the extent, but I've seen— I've been there for some of these gatherings of the young leaders, and you've got believers in quite a few communities that were completely unengaged just 5 years ago. Yeah, as you sort of was winding up our conversation. What would you say to your 20-year-old self? Or what would you say to a 20-year-old now about who is saying, how can God use me? What should I do? How can I discern God's call? Any words of wisdom or experience?

Peter [00:55:41]:
I like the— it's this small booklet written by Somebody, I think, by name Ben Nadia. It's about the 11th hour workers.

Don [00:55:53]:
Okay.

Peter [00:55:55]:
And in that book, he kind of, kind of speaking prophetically about the parable in Matthew 20:1-16 about the workers.

Don [00:56:07]:
The ones who get paid.

Peter [00:56:10]:
No, the workers that were hired very early in the morning.

Don [00:56:13]:
Yes.

Peter [00:56:14]:
And that is very in the morning, another one at 9 in the morning, 12, like that.

Don [00:56:19]:
Yeah.

Peter [00:56:20]:
And then he tried to interpret this parable to me like the first workers, that is people like Abraham, like Noah, Old Testament characters. And then the second group, according to him, these are New Testament, like the apostles.

Don [00:56:39]:
Right.

Peter [00:56:40]:
They worked for a very short time, but very effective.

Don [00:56:43]:
Yeah.

Peter [00:56:44]:
And then the third group that was hired, this is missionaries from 4th century to 18th century.

Don [00:56:54]:
Okay.

Peter [00:56:55]:
That's that group. And that's where you have this group of Reformation.

Don [00:57:01]:
Right.

Peter [00:57:02]:
People like Martin Luther, Wycliffe, this kind of group of people. Yeah. And then from 19th century and 20th century, you have the group that has come to us here in Africa, in Kenya, right? Like Livingstone, Dr. Clough, Peter Cameroun Scott that started the African Union Mission that has given birth to IAC.

Don [00:57:24]:
Yes.

Peter [00:57:25]:
But now we have the last workers, the 11th hour workers to finish the Great Commission.

Don [00:57:32]:
Okay.

Peter [00:57:33]:
These are Latin American, Africans, and Asians.

Peter [00:57:40]:
And these workers, yeah, they have, they are being hired at 5 in the evening and the day, it's only 1 hour to finish the task. So I believe today for somebody who is 18 years, 19 years, whether they're in high school These are our workers. It's from everywhere to everywhere. Wherever they are, they can be missionaries. Okay. The only thing that they need to be is to be made disciples of Jesus, because a disciple of Jesus will give birth to a disciple. So they need to be making disciples wherever they are, whether they are engineers, mechanics, teachers, whatever profession they have, that job could be separate, but the primary goal is to make disciples, is to give glory to Jesus. So that's what I believe, that these 11, our workers, everybody is involved. Every member of the church, there is no spectator. Everybody is involved. In one way or the other.

Don [00:58:55]:
Amen.

Peter [00:58:56]:
Yes.

Don [00:58:57]:
Wow. Love entire workers. And God's just given you a new role that helps shape a major denomination to raise up more workers for the unreached. Yes.

Peter [00:59:14]:
Yeah.

Don [00:59:15]:
It's exciting.

Peter [00:59:16]:
Yeah.

Don [00:59:16]:
It's exciting that God gives you this vision and gives you the opportunity to serve in that way.

Peter [00:59:23]:
Yeah, God has given me this sacred responsibility, and I believe God will enable me to help our denomination, maybe also others, to have missions as a priority. It's something that I believe that— I believe that if whatever we prioritize we will strategize for it. So my prayer, my desire is to see the church, not only AIC, but all churches in Kenya putting mission, Great Commission as a priority. If we put it as a priority, we will strategize for it and we will accomplish the Great Commission. Wow.

Don [01:00:15]:
Yes. That is a good way to end our conversation with great hope for the future. I think so. You know, I preached a sermon some years ago at my home church, and it's the one I've repeated the most. And it's called "Why the Great Commission is Still Great." Ah. And every time I preach it, I use you as an example of someone who God raised up as an apostolic person helping fulfill the Great Commission. Wow, I'm happy. It's fun that Right at the end of our conversation, you shared that vision, the 11th hour worker.

Peter [01:00:50]:
Thank you.

Don [01:00:51]:
Thank you so much.

Don [01:00:53]:
Well, thank you for watching that episode, my conversation with Peter. He's a remarkable man, and God is using him in great ways. And I take great hope for the future of the church in the world, but in Africa in particular, knowing that God is raising up such men of God who do apostolic work in our generation. I trust that you will let people know about this podcast, that you'll give a thumbs up, make some comments, interact with the content. Let people know in your network about Reflexio and journey with us as we meet many people around the world and hear what God is doing in and through them.