Anwar’s Story: From Muslim Convert to Missionary Trainer

Don [00:00:00]:
Welcome to the Reflexio podcast. In this episode, I talk with Dr. Anwar Muhammad Berhe from Ethiopia. I had the privilege of meeting him in Ethiopia last summer, and he introduced me to the Evangelical Theological College where he is the academic dean and also the director of the Islamic Studies program, which has for the first time a master's degree in Islamic studies offered at a Christian seminary in Ethiopia. It's a remarkable story, and in our conversation together, we explore his background, how he came to faith, how God led him into further education and eventually into ministry, and then now to be a trainer of other missionaries and workers in his country. Um, I didn't interview him when I was with him in Ethiopia, but later on, in the fall I was at a conference with him and we sat down in my hotel room and we had an excellent conversation. So enjoy this episode of the Reflexio Podcast.

Don [00:01:07]:
So, Anwar, welcome to the Reflexio Podcast.

Dr. Anwar Mohammed Berri [00:01:11]:
Thank you so much, thanks so much having you— I mean, for this program.

Don [00:01:16]:
Yeah, it's been great to be here together in the same event for a few days. And so we didn't have to do it on our computers.

Anwar [00:01:26]:
Yeah.

Don [00:01:26]:
Yes. So people watching this and listening don't really know who you are. Um, so can you tell us just a bit about— introduce yourself and then maybe tell us about how you came to faith and then we'll go from there.

Anwar [00:01:41]:
Yes, my name is Anwar Muhammad. Uh, I'm married and I have two children, 12 and 6 years old.

Don [00:01:50]:
Okay.

Anwar [00:01:50]:
And, uh, I am living in Ethiopia, uh, in Addis Ababa, and I am teaching at Evangelical Theological College. So concerning my— just obviously, when you

Don [00:02:03]:
say Anwar Muhammad and you're teaching at theological college, there's a story here.

Anwar [00:02:09]:
Yeah, yeah.

Don [00:02:10]:
So you could tell us about your early life and how you came to know Jesus?

Anwar [00:02:15]:
Yes, so I become a believer, uh, when— actually 30 years ago. When I was, uh, young, I grew up in a Muslim family and I didn't have an opportunity to discuss with Christians or even to meet Christians. You know, I was in Muslim majority community. Okay, but when I was a secondary school student, I went to another town which there are some Christians who are living there. They were Christian students, so that is the first time I met Christians.

Don [00:02:54]:
You were a teenager.

Anwar [00:02:55]:
Yeah, but I was so devout Muslim and I, I didn't want to just discuss with Christians because— if I discussed with Christians, I was thinking that, you know, I will be converted to Christianity. So— You don't want to be converted. Yeah, all the time just I was rejecting a Christian faith. But when I was grade 10 student, you know, God encountered me through dream. Okay. So that dream is actually the first time that I start to think there is a, a religion which is true other than Islam.

Don [00:03:33]:
Can you tell us what the dream was?

Anwar [00:03:36]:
Yes, you know, in my dream, just, uh, when I was walking on the street of Addis Ababa, one of the streets, so there was a sun eclipse. It was darkness as there was no light, as a electric light or whatever kind of light. It was really dark. But there was one person who was walking around with a trumpet. He was blowing the trumpet, okay, and he was saying, 'The end time is coming, judgment is coming. Unless you believe in Jesus, you will perish.' Wow. So that was the message. Yeah, that person actually walk around, he can see, but other people cannot see and they cannot walk, you know, it was a complete darkness. So the next day I woke up and I started to think, what is this dream? So I decided to read the Bible and the Quran comparatively.

Don [00:04:38]:
You already had a Bible or you

Anwar [00:04:39]:
could just get— just I got from other people, and then it took me 3 years of debating with Christians discussing with them, reading the Bible, reading the Quran, and after 3 years, at the end of the 3 years, actually I became confused.

Don [00:04:59]:
Okay, before— when you started, did you just start reading the Bible yourself or did you get a Christian to explain how it works?

Anwar [00:05:04]:
Just by myself.

Don [00:05:05]:
You started in Genesis 1 or did you start in the New Testament?

Anwar [00:05:08]:
Just randomly. Okay. Yeah, I was reading randomly. —and I was reading books written by this Muslim apologists like Ahmadinejad. Okay. And, you know, I was discussing with different Christians and I actually— my desire was to know the truth. Yeah, finally, you know, at the end of the 3 years, I become confused and I say, okay, Islam is not true.

Don [00:05:35]:
You're convinced Islam is not true.

Anwar [00:05:36]:
Not true. But which Christian group is true?

Don [00:05:39]:
Which Christian group?

Don [00:05:41]:
By then you had learned about all the different Christian— especially Ethiopia, you have the Orthodox Christian.

Anwar [00:05:45]:
Orthodox, Catholics, uh, Protestants. But what I did is just I quitted reading the Bible, the Quran, discussing with Christians or Muslims, and I started praying. In the morning when I woke up, just I pray. When I sleep, I pray.

Don [00:06:05]:
As a Muslim or you're praying personal prayers?

Anwar [00:06:07]:
Just personal prayer.

Anwar [00:06:09]:
My prayer is just the same all the time. What I said is, Lord, either you are Allah or God in a Christian name, Xavi here in Amharic, show me the truth. Now I cannot get the truth by myself. So I prayed for 2 months. Wow. And finally I met, uh, One of university students from Addis Ababa University, we met and we had discussion almost for a week.

Don [00:06:43]:
Were you a university student yourself?

Anwar [00:06:45]:
Yeah, I was a university student at that time. Okay. Yeah, so finally he explained to me about this Christian doctrines, about Trinity, about the deity of Christ, about salvation and all these things. Okay. Finally I decided to to follow Christ. It made sense finally. Yeah, just finally I decided to follow Christ. Actually, it was not in the church, okay, but just at night, it was at 10 PM.

Don [00:07:12]:
Well, you remember the time.

Anwar [00:07:14]:
Yeah, so my friend led me to Christ.

Don [00:07:16]:
He was there with you?

Anwar [00:07:18]:
Yeah, with me, we were in the same, uh, room. Yeah, yeah, so that's how I came to Christ. The next day Just I start to preach the gospel to my friends and—

Don [00:07:29]:
You were convinced, you told— Yeah, but

Anwar [00:07:32]:
you know, I didn't go to my home area because I was in the university. So actually for some time I had a freedom just, uh, to share my faith and to stay safe.

Don [00:07:46]:
How did your friends respond?

Anwar [00:07:49]:
Yeah, my Muslim friends actually rejected me immediately. Some came to me and actually they, they tried to discuss with me and even to debate with me, but most of them just rejected me and I, you know, excommunicated me from their group. Even I myself just said I am a Christian now. Okay. Just it's a complete departure from the Muslim community. Right. Yeah, so when I finished the first year of my study in the university, I went back home and, you know, for 2 months break time, this school holiday, actually I was quiet. I didn't say anything, you know, because—

Don [00:08:39]:
But you were different.

Anwar [00:08:41]:
Yeah, because, you know, they will kill me, all my family, community is. Reject you? Yeah, so they are Muslim— they, they were Muslims, so just I kept quiet. And when I finished the break time, I went to university. When I went to university, just I told to my sister who was living in Addis Ababa, in the capital, I told her I become a Christian. And then I went the next day.

Don [00:09:08]:
The whole family knew?

Anwar [00:09:09]:
Or you left the next day? The next day. So they discussed and what they say is, okay, we have to quit supporting him. Stop supporting— supporting me. You know, I was university student, they didn't send money. Actually what they said is, oh, he went to Christianity, he became a Christian to get American money.

Don [00:09:33]:
Yeah, that's, uh, they always find the wrong motives.

Anwar [00:09:37]:
Yeah, yeah, so You know, when I was in the university, you know, I had very difficult time of supporting myself, but, you know, I joined the Christian Student Fellowship, right? They discipled me, they mentored me.

Don [00:09:53]:
So you were well received?

Anwar [00:09:55]:
Well received.

Don [00:09:55]:
Were there other Muslim background believers there with you, or you were the only one?

Anwar [00:09:59]:
No, just— I was the only one, the only one. But in terms of finance, I had very difficult time. So I prayed, you know, just I prayed with one of my friend who was a Christian, right? Lord, provide me a part-time job while, while I was studying. Just I wanted to work and support myself. I didn't go to the church or someone else to support me. Yeah, even in my culture, you know, people do not go and ask. Support unless it is, uh, within the family network, right? Yeah, so God provided me a part-time job, so I start to work and study. I finished my study by supporting myself. During graduation, all my family says will not come. There's only one of my sisters, she came and accompanied me in the graduation.

Don [00:10:55]:
Was she the one living in Addis?

Anwar [00:10:57]:
In Addis, yes. Yeah, she was already— But others just, they said no. So that was— What did you do your degree in? In agriculture engineering. Okay.

Don [00:11:08]:
Yeah. Wow. So God provided for 3 years of university without support or 2 years?

Anwar [00:11:13]:
Yeah, 2 years. 3 years.

Don [00:11:17]:
Yeah, 2 years.

Don [00:11:17]:
Did you still go home in the summer breaks, the school breaks or not?

Anwar [00:11:21]:
Then After I graduated, just I went home. When I went home, that is actually the time real persecution started.

Don [00:11:31]:
Okay.

Anwar [00:11:32]:
So when I went home, all the villagers, my uncles, my aunties, my relatives, my family just came together and just they told me, "You have to renounce your faith." Yes. No discussion, no negotiation. This is your— just, yeah, you brought shame on us, so you have to say shahada, you have to accept Islam again.

Don [00:11:59]:
Saying the shahada was the key, right?

Anwar [00:12:01]:
Yeah, that's the key. And finally what happened is, you know, I asked them, let's discuss, let's debate, okay, you know, if Islam is true, just convince me, just tell me from the Quran. Persuade me. Persuade me, yeah. And if Christianity is true, I want to persuade you. I want to tell you the truth. Okay. But they say, ah, you boy, you know, you are just a small boy, how can you instruct us? Yes. You know, we are the sheikhs, we are big people. Yes. Just I try to persuade them, finally they say no. Do you know, gul— beat you, we will kill you. We have the power. Just you are the only one among us. Community, yeah. Yeah, it was not nighttime, it was about 9 PM, you know, so I was alone in a house but, you know, hundreds of people surrounded me. Yeah, finally just I said to my uncle— my dad was passed away at that time So I told to my uncle, he is responsible for that group. Yeah, so I told him, if you kill me, I will go to heaven, but you will go to jail, you know. So I don't worry about my life, you can kill me, but you are putting yourself in a very dangerous situation.

Don [00:13:31]:
Okay, that was smart.

Anwar [00:13:33]:
Yeah, so actually the Holy Spirit gave you the words. It gave me the words.

Don [00:13:38]:
And finally I thought of those words immediately. Yeah, Jesus promised he would tell you.

Anwar [00:13:43]:
Yeah, so, you know, my uncle just called other leaders, let's go out and discuss about this boy, he is very dangerous, so what can we do? They discussed and came back and what they said is We will not beat you, we will not kill you, but you will suffer. You will not go other places. You don't have job now. You will stay here. So we will pressurize you and then you will see how it's painful being excommunicated or discriminated from the family. Yeah.

Don [00:14:18]:
Then you'll change your mind. Yeah.

Anwar [00:14:20]:
They want you to— Exactly. Yeah. So finally they went. I stayed there almost 1 year and a half. I didn't have job. Everyone come and just insult me.

Don [00:14:32]:
And you stayed at your family home?

Anwar [00:14:34]:
Yeah, with my mom. And everyone came and just say, you are kafir, you know, you are worthless, you know. They come with lots of bad words, and, uh, actually they want to make me hopeless. Make you— yeah, spare, spare.

Don [00:14:51]:
Yeah. How did you feel in the middle of it?

Anwar [00:14:54]:
Yeah, actually, you know, the Holy Spirit was working in my life, right? Every day I went around door to door, I was preaching the gospel to your village. Yeah, yeah. Even the sheikhs, I went to mosque, I was asking them, let's discuss. Yes, I have the truth, let me tell you. If you have the truth, just tell me.

Don [00:15:18]:
Did anyone do it?

Anwar [00:15:19]:
Did they debate? Yeah, actually we debated, but, you know, they didn't— they didn't change. —persuade me, and even most of the time I won the argument.

Don [00:15:30]:
But they didn't change their mind.

Anwar [00:15:32]:
They didn't change the mind. And the other problem was financial problem. I suffered financially. I didn't have job. I didn't get any support from my family because all agreed don't give him anything, right? And even I didn't get job, you know, it's God's plan. It was God's plan, okay, to put me there actually to sanctify me and to grow in my faith.

Don [00:16:00]:
Yes, you had to trust God alone.

Anwar [00:16:03]:
Yeah. So finally I prayed, Lord,— if this is not my place, let me go to another place. The Lord told me through dream again, told me, stay here. I will give you— I provide you a job. Okay. You'll get a job and you'll do my work. You know, then I stayed there. I got a job. There was, uh, an organization, a third world relief organization. Which is called Gold Ethiopia. So there was a job announcement and finally I was employed there. So that actually changed the whole thing, you know. Then the family thought, oh yeah, this guy got the job, you know, he's not— he's not caving. Yeah, so, and the other thing is One of my friend who was a Muslim, yeah, he got sick. Okay, actually he was— he got sick for 4 years and finally his dad and his family decided, ah, this guy will not be healed. They tried medical treatment, they went to witchcraft, the sheiks. But no, his dad said, ah, he has a demon. Okay, so his demon will leave him if he is a Christian Protestant. So he came to me and asked me, you know, do you think my son will be healed if he accept Christ? I said yes. Okay, I took him to the church. And finally we pray for him. How old is this boy? Uh, he was, uh, it's about 24.

Don [00:18:00]:
Oh yeah, same age as you.

Anwar [00:18:02]:
Yeah, yeah. So finally what happened is he was completely healed. I started to disciple him so he confessed faith. Yeah, yeah. So then my brother and my sister came to faith, his brother came came to faith. My uncle's daughter also came to faith. Many Muslims came to Christ in your village. In my village, I started to disciple them. Wow. You know, even I was working in that organization, I was getting money, I was supporting myself. Actually, at the midst of this situation, God called me for full-time ministry. Okay, then that's how I I moved to ministry. Actually, I was involving in youth ministry in the church, right? But God called me for a ministry.

Don [00:18:49]:
So a lot of young people— I, I'm at a university, I talk to young people— they often wonder, so how do we know what God's calling us to? What was your experience? How did you know it was God calling you?

Anwar [00:19:02]:
Yeah, actually, uh, I was overburdened by ministry, the lost soul. All the time, you know, the Holy Spirit was speaking inside me. Just all the time I was feeling, you have to leave your job and give full time, go and serve the gospel. Serve the gospel. So, I, I couldn't resist that voice. Inside. Yeah, so that's how God just puts a burden in me, and then I left my job and, uh, joined.

Don [00:19:42]:
So you were a year and a half there on your own? Uh, after you moved— finished university, like a year and a half you were in your hometown?

Anwar [00:19:51]:
Yeah, year and a half actually under persecution, and another 2 years, okay, on the job.

Don [00:19:59]:
Okay, yeah. During this time, did you meet your wife, or was it later? It's later. So when God called you into ministry, what happened?

Anwar [00:20:09]:
You know, God called me for ministry. Actually, what I did was just first I went to the church leaders, I shared what God spoke to my heart and my desire to be full-time minister, right, in the church to serve. The church leader says, okay, this is a good idea. Yeah, but you know, you have a big salary over there.

Don [00:20:35]:
It was a good job.

Anwar [00:20:36]:
Yeah, a good job. Mhm. But you know, here in the church we will not pay you, uh, well.

Anwar [00:20:45]:
So do you think about it? Yeah.

Don [00:20:46]:
I said yes.

Anwar [00:20:47]:
Are you sure? Yeah. So whatever it is, even though I, I'm not paid, I will serve. My desire is not the money, right, but to serve the Lord. Yeah. Then the church leaders discuss about it and, uh, finally decided he has to go to theological college instead of just starting ministry without having theological education. Yeah, so they sent me to Evangelical Theological College for Bachelor of Theology program. I went there and— so you already

Don [00:21:24]:
had a bachelor's degree, you had to do another 4 years or 3 years?

Anwar [00:21:29]:
4 years, 4 years of Bachelor of Theology. Okay. Then, you know, I started, uh, the program and the church sponsored me the whole tuition fee and living

Don [00:21:40]:
covered your costs.

Anwar [00:21:44]:
Yeah, everything.

Don [00:21:44]:
Yeah, this was your local church in your village.

Anwar [00:21:47]:
Yeah, yeah. So they paid all the, uh, all my fees, right? And then when I was studying in the college, again God spoke to me through dream. God told me, you will serve among Muslims. Your place is serving among Muslims. Not being a pastor in— Is a specific dream that— Yeah, a specific dream.

Don [00:22:13]:
Can you tell that story? Yeah, because not many of us are guided by dreams. Yeah, but I have been, and I,

Anwar [00:22:19]:
I have friends who have, but yeah. So in my dream, one of the church leaders, the top church leader in the denomination, right, he came in my dream and told me, you will serve among Muslims. Dreams. Okay, so you will not go back to your church, local church, and you will not be a pastor. Okay, so you will serve the Lord among Muslim women. That is your place.

Don [00:22:51]:
That is— so you got that in a dream and you accepted it. Was it— did it give you joy, or did you have some fear around that calling? How did you respond?

Anwar [00:23:01]:
Yeah, actually I was so excited. Okay. Because I was involving in Muslim ministry even in my area. I was preaching the gospel to my family, my friends, you know, Muslim community. Even I was training some pastors and, uh, some missionaries. How to reach Muslims. Yeah, so that was a confirmation for, for me. Yeah. And then I start to work, uh, more in DABS, you know, studying Islam and DABS and mission. Even I studied mission study. Okay. Later on, then I start to train people who are serving among Muslims in different places. I was teaching in Bible schools, especially Islamic courses.

Don [00:23:48]:
Still single at this point?

Anwar [00:23:50]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah, so Then when I finished my studies in bachelor level, right, the church, my denomination, okay, invited me to start a Muslim outreach department in the national office.

Don [00:24:13]:
Wow.

Anwar [00:24:13]:
Actually, uh, I, I am so thankful for my church. Even my— what's the name of your church? Ethiopian Kalewa Church, or in English, Word of Life Church. Okay. Yeah, so even my friends who were my roommates, you know, they saw my gifts and my passion, and actually all the time they went to the national office and the leaders— went to the leaders and told them, Anwar has a passion to Muslims.

Don [00:24:41]:
Okay.

Anwar [00:24:42]:
You know, he is gifted in that area, right? 'You have to start a Muslim outreach department in the national office.' Suggested the idea. Yeah, you have to invite him and he has to start that program. Okay. So finally the church invited me and, uh, invited me to start a Muslim outreach department.

Don [00:25:02]:
Wow.

Anwar [00:25:02]:
In the denomination headquarters?

Don [00:25:04]:
Headquarters.

Anwar [00:25:05]:
To serve the whole nation? The whole nation, yeah. So I agreed and I went and I started that program, and then, you know, I developed this, uh, strategic plan and everything, and then I started training pastors, church leaders, missionaries, evangelists who are working in Muslim areas, and then I was looking after, okay, all the church planting activities in those Muslim areas all over the country.

Don [00:25:36]:
How was it? Was some of it all new? The, the church planting efforts, were they

Anwar [00:25:42]:
new initiatives after you started? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, uh, all over the country I was traveling a lot and, uh, I was going there and training the church leaders. I was advising how they have to plant churches and share the gospel to Muslims. So I served 10 years in that capacity.

Don [00:26:05]:
Okay, and even now you must be almost 40, right?

Anwar [00:26:08]:
36 at this time? At that time, 32, around.

Don [00:26:12]:
I mean, started or when you finished?

Anwar [00:26:15]:
Uh, actually, when I finished, I was about 36. Okay. Yeah, some— something like that. So then, you know, when the Muslim convert— when many Muslims came to Christ through our ministry, right? So I saw that the need of starting a training center for Muslim background

Don [00:26:38]:
believers, right, to disciple them and educate

Anwar [00:26:41]:
them, to educate them and even to, uh, train them to be a missionary, okay, among their community, right? So we started a training center in diploma level which focus on mission and Islamic study. Then, you know, 50 students— we accepted 50 students, train them for 2 years and send them to Muslim areas, and another 50 every 2 years. And when we deploy them, actually we also connect them with local churches in Ethiopia to support them as a missionary, right? So yeah, it was It was so wonderful, and God actually used that ministry to reach out many thousands and thousands of Muslims in Ethiopia. Wow.

Don [00:27:32]:
Is that ministry still continuing?

Anwar [00:27:34]:
Yeah, yeah, actually that center is continuing. Just I left that department to come to the theological college.

Don [00:27:43]:
To teach at the college level?

Anwar [00:27:45]:
Yeah, yeah. Actually, I met my wife in between this time.

Don [00:27:50]:
Okay.

Don [00:27:50]:
Yeah. Is she a Muslim background as well?

Anwar [00:27:52]:
No, she is a Christian background. You know, getting a marriage partner for Muslim background person can be— is really difficult. Yeah. You know, uh, one time just I asked one Christian background girl and, uh, she said, okay, I want to marry you But with a condition. Okay. She said, you know, if you change your name, if you change your name Anwar to Samuel or David or whatever, then I'll marry you. Yeah, I will, I will marry you and my family will accept you as a Christian. Ah, they won't know your— Yeah, so if you are, if your name is a Muslim, they are actually not trusting you, you may go back to Islam sometime. Yeah. So we discussed and I tried to convince her and persuade her, you know, I want to, you know, keep my name because it's very important for my ministry. Of course. Whenever I meet Muslims, you know, when I say Anwar, okay, you are a Christian? Why you are a Christian? So that is the starting point for— of course.

Don [00:29:11]:
Discussion.

Anwar [00:29:11]:
Yeah, yeah. So she said no. Finally, just we terminated our relationship, and then I asked my wife, uh, for marriage. She said okay, and, uh, her family parents, uh, actually they had a burden for Muslims. Okay. And they didn't have such kind of

Don [00:29:34]:
problem, so So her parents were quite happy.

Anwar [00:29:36]:
Yeah, they were happy. Even God spoke to them, uh, that I will ask her for a marriage even before I approached her.

Don [00:29:46]:
Wow.

Anwar [00:29:46]:
God spoke to them, and finally they say, oh, this is a man we are waiting for. So God intervened, and finally we got married, and we have two

Don [00:30:01]:
children now. Now, when we met a few

Don [00:30:06]:
months

Don [00:30:06]:
ago, I— we— you toured the college, I saw what you're doing. How did you go from teaching at the college to starting a program for Muslim-Christian relations? You did some more studies?

Anwar [00:30:20]:
Yeah, yeah, you know, when I was working in my denomination national office, actually I did my master's degree in mission studies on Islamic emphasis at the ETC— at Nairobi Africa International University. Oh, that's right, you went to— yeah, yeah. And then, uh, you know, I saw the need, a huge need of training trainers, right? Yeah, so there was a lack of, uh, training for trainers in higher level. So finally I decided, and even I discussed with my leaders in the national office, I told them, you know, now there are other people who can do what I am doing now, you know, I raised other leaders, you know, while I was there. So now it's time for me to go to theological college to establish a master's degree in Christian-Muslim relations. Right. So my church leaders blessed me. They agreed with my vision and they say, go to do a doctoral study and come back and start that program. Okay. Then I went to Australia for doctoral study. Did you go to MTS?

Don [00:31:40]:
Uh, PhD. Did you do Melbourne School of Theology?

Anwar [00:31:42]:
Melbourne School of Theology.

Don [00:31:43]:
With Peter Riddell?

Anwar [00:31:45]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so I went there and I came back and I joined the Evangelical Theological College and, uh, we started Master of Arts degree in Christian-Muslim relation in 2020 in COVID time. Okay. Yeah, so we started that program. Now it's thriving. There are now about 43 students in that program and, uh, actually 3 batches graduated so far. And, uh, again this year we started a research degree. Okay. In Master of Theology in Islamic Studies program, a higher degree. And we have 10 students who are doing research on pressing issues, uh, in, uh, mission to Muslims and issues that are very important for Ethiopian churches and African churches. Yes.

Don [00:32:41]:
Okay. Yeah. Wow. Um, I mean, what was it like in, in Melbourne? You were there 4 years or something?

Anwar [00:32:50]:
3 years and a half.

Don [00:32:52]:
Yeah.

Don [00:32:52]:
With your wife and children?

Don [00:32:54]:
Yes.

Don [00:32:55]:
Yeah. Did they want to leave and come back to Ethiopia, or did they want to stay?

Anwar [00:33:01]:
Yeah, es— you know, when we were there, you know, many Ethiopians, our friends, They actually asked us, you know, you have to stay here, you have to stay in Melbourne. But, you know, we said no. Our calling and our passion is go back to our country to serve the Lord. Yes, we know there are financial challenges, security challenges, there are lots of challenges over there. Melbourne is a One of the best cities, livable cities. But, you know, our calling is for Ethiopia. We have to go back. And then finally we— even we have to keep our promise. You know, when we were sponsored, our church, our institution, our college, uh, Melbourne School of Theology, Langham Partnership, OCI and Scholar Leaders. They supported us, right? So we promised to them that you will go back. Yeah, so you don't even consider— yeah, so we have to keep— that is our promise and we have to abide with our promise.

Don [00:34:12]:
And you wanted to— yeah, so that's for your call.

Anwar [00:34:16]:
Yeah, then we came back. Yeah, thank God we are serving now not only in the college. I'm one of the leaders— in the church. Okay. In the local church. I am leading one mega church in Addis Ababa. I am chair of the board of trustees of that church.

Don [00:34:39]:
You are not the pastor, but you are board chair. You are not pastoring that church, you

Anwar [00:34:45]:
are chair of the board. Yeah, yeah, but I am teaching, preaching, you know, I am involved in different church planting.

Don [00:34:54]:
Yeah, yeah. So this conference we've been at, without going into detail, we're talking a lot about how Muslim background believers are welcomed into the church or not, or their problems. It sounds like yours is— from the beginning it's been very positive. They welcomed you, they haven't shut any doors for you, they've opened doors for you.

Don [00:35:16]:
Yes.

Anwar [00:35:16]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, when I came to Christ Actually, there are challenges from the Muslim side and from the Christian side. Always that exists. From Muslim, my family, from my friend, from my community, there was a rejection, right, and discrimination and lots of problems. From the Christian side, I was welcomed, okay, by the church with open arms. Yeah, they were open. The arms supported me, but I had a challenge of cultural differences.

Don [00:35:52]:
Okay.

Anwar [00:35:52]:
That is the challenge, you know, to integrate with the Christian community. I had cultural challenge for some time, you know, I faced that problem. I had this economic challenge, uh, and, uh, in my marriage, as I mentioned. You know, one of the girls, she just rejected my marriage proposal. All those are actually somehow hurting and somehow is not good, but in general, I was impressed by the church. That's why even the church trusted me. You know, I was young, I was a new believer when I proposed to be a full-time minister, right? But the church says, "Cut." Okay. And when I finished my studies, I didn't have leadership experience, but the church, you know, invited me to serve in the national office. It's a mega church, 12 million members. Yeah, in that church. Yeah, it wasn't that big then, right? At that time, it was about 8 million. Yeah, it's a one of the biggest evangelical denomination in Ethiopia. Yeah, but a young person, an experienced person like me— trusted you with that. Yeah, they trusted me. Yeah, even when I came to the theological college, the theological college leadership just immediately accepted my request to be a faculty. Okay. Yeah, so I am so lucky, and I was impressed by the

Don [00:37:36]:
church.

Anwar [00:37:36]:
That's why, you know, I served

Don [00:37:40]:
in the church. Um, you said that you finally did meet your wife. What's her name?

Don [00:37:48]:
Tsegeda.

Don [00:37:48]:
Did, um, is there a romance story to tell? People like to hear the romance stories, you know, the story of how you met. Or was it— yeah, do you want

Anwar [00:37:59]:
to say anything about that? Yeah, yeah, you know, one of my friend, and he was my student, but he was, he was my student in Bible school, right? He was a pastor of one of the churches, right? And then one day he invited me for lunch in his home, and we start to just talk about marriage. I was single and his wife and him just started to talk, you know, why don't you marry? I said, okay, it's a good idea. And then he said he proposed my wife, you know, he said this girl, do you know this girl? Oh, I don't know, I do not know her. So he said, okay, let me connect you.

Don [00:38:45]:
So his wife said that or he

Anwar [00:38:46]:
said— he, he says that. And he actually connected us and then, then I actually proposed. I loved her. Very quickly? Uh, yes. Yeah? Actually, it's not, uh, one day or two days, but you know, we were in the same church, so— You already knew her? Uh, a little bit, just a little bit. Yeah, so we start to to connect and, you know, see each other in, you know, I start to, you know, know who she is, you know, all this process. After all this process, actually God also puts, you know, a sense of loving— actually love in my heart. And God also spoke to her father through dream. You know, there will be— a man will come to your home to ask your daughter. That is her husband. Finally they were ready and when I asked her, she said, okay, let me pray about it and they discussed and finally after 2 weeks she came and told me, ah, I'm ready, I'm happy. 2 weeks. 2 weeks. Then we started to actually date, and you know, it took us 2 years until marriage.

Don [00:40:13]:
Yeah. So you were in your 40s by the time you got married? Uh, 32.

Don [00:40:19]:
32?

Don [00:40:19]:
Yeah.

Anwar [00:40:20]:
Okay, I missed— yeah, the calculation. Yeah, actually when I was working in the national office. Okay.

Don [00:40:26]:
That's the time. You've been married for 20 years now?

Anwar [00:40:30]:
18 years. 19. Yeah, it's about 18 years. Yeah, yeah, 18, 19.

Don [00:40:36]:
Yeah.

Don [00:40:36]:
Wow.

Don [00:40:37]:
Yeah. And, and there was never any problem with her family that you were Muslim background? I know, because you were a Christian leader.

Anwar [00:40:44]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Actually, her mom and her dad were praying for me. Okay. All the time they pray, all the time they support us, especially encouraged us and, and yeah, they are very good

Don [00:41:02]:
family and they are very happy. And your Muslim family, some of them are believers now. Yeah. Do they welcome her wholeheartedly or just—

Anwar [00:41:12]:
Yeah, actually the Christians accepted her, even the Muslims, yeah, yeah, accepted her. Yeah, so, you know, our relationship actually become normalized and —now it's good because I continuously insisted on engaging with my family and, you know, visiting them, and we developed this good relationship. Okay. Yeah. But last year— actually, when is that— last year when we started to build a church in my local area, in my home area, Muslims rise up and, uh, just— it was very difficult. And they said, no, you cannot build a church, you know.

Don [00:41:57]:
So we went to the court— church

Anwar [00:41:59]:
or build a building? A building for an existing church. Yeah. Okay. So they rejected that, and all the community, uh, just rejected our proposal and went to the court. Finally, the court decided in favor of us. Okay. And, uh, but they say we will kill you. That's very difficult. Yeah, very difficult time, uh, last year. Just last year?

Don [00:42:25]:
Just last year.

Don [00:42:25]:
I was just going to say, so the persecution was at the beginning but nothing else?

Anwar [00:42:30]:
Yeah, but now, you know, when we built the church, you know, we had a plot of land, uh, me and my brother, we gave that plot of land to the church. To build. Okay. Then because of this, the Muslims were not happy, and I was also jailed for 2, 2 days because of this. The police, you know, came and just jailed us. Why you are building a church? And, uh, yeah, but, uh, God is good, and God just changed everything, and

Don [00:43:04]:
now we are building the church.

Don [00:43:09]:
Wow.

Don [00:43:11]:
Um, let's see, we don't have long. Final question, we've run out of time. One more question. Um, is there a period of time in these years— I mean, last year you were at death threats or whatever, some— a hard time you

Don [00:43:34]:
went through

Don [00:43:35]:
that, um, did you want to share

Anwar [00:43:38]:
about other than that early years? Yes, especially, especially last year when there was persecution, and now the Muslims were sending text message to my brother and even myself.

Don [00:43:54]:
Okay.

Anwar [00:43:54]:
They were saying, "We'll kill you," and, "We will burn your house," "We'll kill your children." Even in Addis? Especially— oh, even in Addis. Yeah. For me and for my brother who was in the village. Right. So that time was very, very difficult and, you know, it was traumatic. My brother was alone in that area. So, you know, there was lots of uncertainty about his security situation. But, uh, God protected him, right? But almost like 6 months, it was very traumatic time. And for my family, for even for the church, you know, even people were praying all over the world, you know, we shared our prayer, uh, items, and so they were praying for us. Thank God that time passed.

Don [00:44:56]:
Yeah, but now, yeah, it's good. So I, I visited for the first time just a few months ago. That's when we met. Um, I was quite impressed with 3 strong denominations doing outreach and mission. Can you just a few comments about the strength of the church, what you see? Are you encouraged by what God is doing in Ethiopia? Yes.

Anwar [00:45:18]:
And especially among Muslims?

Don [00:45:20]:
Yes.

Anwar [00:45:21]:
Yeah, actually this is a season in Ethiopia. This is the season, the time. Yeah, the time that God is working among the Muslim community in Ethiopia. Not only in Ethiopia, even in the world, right? But in Ethiopian situation is so different, you know. Thousands of Muslims are coming to Christ. Thousands, thousands, thousands of Muslims are coming to Christ, and churches are actually joining hands and they are working together to reach out the Muslim community, and people are trained— many people are trained for Muslim ministry. That's why even we started this master's program, right, to train trainers. Yeah, you know, there are missionaries, pastors, you know, church planters, disciple makers, so we are offering that training to train them and go to train others and even to preach the gospel in culturally relevant ways. Right. Yeah, and even these days there are lots of issues that should be researched, you know. Ethiopia is, uh, actually surrounded by Muslim countries— Djibouti, Somalia, Sudan— and across the Red Sea there is a Middle East. So it's a Christian nation, okay, surrounded by Muslims. So there is lots of pressure from outside, from Muslim community, right, and from radical groups. So there is a pressure that, uh, to push the Christians in Ethiopia, you know, actually the Muslims want to have the upper hand. Politically, economically, socially, and even spiritually, and in terms of numbers. So we are training people to do research, to know the context, what is going on, what are the issues there, how can we tackle those issues, because there are challenges, at the same time there are opportunities for mission. So we are focusing on training people And God is actually using them, you know, for the ministry of the church in Ethiopia and even in the Horn of Africa. Some of our graduates are even some in North Africa, some in Somaliland, and some actually go to even Asia as a missionary.

Don [00:47:47]:
Sending, sending them out. And a lot of these are Muslim background people?

Don [00:47:50]:
Yes.

Anwar [00:47:50]:
Who are going as missionaries? Yeah, Muslim background. And even Christian background who

Don [00:47:59]:
has taken this training.

Anwar [00:48:01]:
Right.

Don [00:48:01]:
Yeah. Well, unfortunately, you have an appointment to go to.

Don [00:48:03]:
Yeah.

Don [00:48:04]:
So we have to wind up. Any, any comment if you think of someone in their 20s as they're looking ahead at their life and saying, "How do I know what God is doing?" or any encouragement to them or just word of advice?

Anwar [00:48:20]:
Yes, you know, this is the time that God is working in the Muslim nation. Okay. This is the time. So in this season, you know, there, uh, actually the harvest is plenty. So we have to join hands. Join the— join the— join hands together. Christians, we have to join hands. Together to reach out the Muslim community with the gospel message. So actually, I want to invite everyone, Christians in Europe, in America, in Asia, in Africa, in different parts of the world, let's join hands and let's work together, let's partner, right, and actually share the gospel to Muslims and help them to disciple and disciple them and grow in their faith. And we are also very happy to, you know, work together with like-minded people. And just, I want to invite anyone who is interested to come alongside with us to train those people, you know, BMEBs and even Christian background believers for the ministry of the church in Muslim community.

Don [00:49:39]:
Well, maybe we'll end with that since we've run out of time.

Don [00:49:43]:
It's been good talking to you. Well, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Dr. Anwar Behi. Um, please take the time to interact with the videos on YouTube or, uh, give a thumbs up, like, uh, all these things help get the word out about this podcast. We're trying to serve the global community, so it'd be great if you could just tell the friends in your network works about the podcast. Until next time, and thank you.