Finding Home After Islam: A Conversation with Bishop Yassir Eric

Don [00:01]:
Welcome to the 21st episode of the Reflexio Podcast. I'm your host, Don Little, and today you'll be a part of the conversation I had with Yassir. Last fall, we were at a conference together in Asia, and he found the time to give me a half hour, and we had a short conversation, and he shares a little bit about his life, how he came to faith, and then the vision he has for the global church of Muslim background believers, and especially those who are not connected to any local church for a variety of reasons. This is a very informative conversation. Yassir has quite a story himself, which we didn't get into a whole lot, but he is one of the most respected leaders in the Muslim world today, and it's a great privilege I had to sit and talk with him and share this conversation with you. I trust that this will be informative and inspiring as you understand another layer of what God is doing across the Muslim world today.

Don [01:10]:
So welcome, Yassir, to the Reflexio podcast.

Bishop Yassir Eric [01:13]:
Thank you.

Don [01:13]:
It's a delight that we're in the same room for a few days in the same place. People don't necessarily know you. We have a few show notes about you, but can you just sort of introduce yourself and then tell a little bit about your early days? Go ahead.

Yassir [01:32]:
Well, I was born in Northern Sudan to a Muslim family, and the Lord Jesus Christ met me in 1990 and changed my life completely. I have never entered church. I've never seen a Bible in my life. I had a very hostile. Kind of thinking about Christianity.

Don [02:00]:
Yes.

Yassir [02:00]:
Because for me, Christianity is something from the west, and it's not indigenous, it's out of our culture. So all of these men made a lot of barriers between me that time and the church, which is. Maybe you can speak later on a little bit about it, that it is not kind of part of the society. It became a strange body. So because of that, I never had a chance to really encounter the Christian faith in a proper, direct way.

Don [02:37]:
Right.

Yassir [02:37]:
Yes. And also because of the conflict that we had in Sudan was fueled by religion. I mean, not everybody is. Sudan is violent, but we had a period of time where it was very, very difficult, especially in the 80s. So many people right now, it's not easy either. Actually, right now it is the story repeating itself. Yeah, it's going to. And this is. That's always what I say. Whatever you saw on the earth, it comes again. Yeah. So northern. Matter of fact, northern Sudan waged war in many parts of the country. So, like, the central government have been always since the 50s in Khartoum. And Sudan is actually. It's not just a country, it's a continent. And, yeah, we have, like, more than 571 different languages, more than 20 big ethnic groups.

Don [03:40]:
This isn't just the North Sudan, Sudan itself. Not South Sudan.

Yassir [03:43]:
No, no. All together, Including. Yeah. So including the South Sudan. And so to govern a country like that centrally, it is actually impossible. So. So that's why, you know, like, the war that was done in Southern Sudan was done in Darfur. Now it came to Northern Sudan. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I was part of that system till I became a follower of Christ. And. And that happened through an encounter with Coptic Christians who came and visited the son of my uncle who was deadly sick at the hospital. I never had any relationship to Christians, but those Christians, they hear that this child is sick and they came and he was in intensive care. And I asked them why did they come? They said, well, they heard about him and they came. They want to pray for him.

Don [04:44]:
They. Is this a relative of yours or a friend?

Yassir [04:47]:
No, it was my cousin.

Don [04:48]:
Your cousin?

Yassir [04:49]:
Yes. So my cousin was very sick. Severely sick, actually. And he was in intensive care for many weeks and had no chance actually to live. And one evening came to Coptic Christians that I really did not know, but because they're Christians. And I realized that because. Because they carried the cross in their hands. Yeah. And then I asked him, why did you come? And then one of them said to me, they came because they want to pray for this child. That time I didn't know that Christian pray. I did not know even that Christians believe in God. Yeah, yeah. So that was. I could not bring the two together. Prayer did not.

Don [05:36]:
It's so strange. But that's so the case.

Yassir [05:38]:
It is. And because we live in a segregated areas, you know, like, we never had anything in common, but for some reason, maybe out of politeness, maybe out of shame about. But today I would say it was God's provision.

Don [05:55]:
Yeah.

Yassir [05:56]:
That I said to them, yeah, they can pray. And then I don't want to see them.

Don [06:01]:
So you were there in the hospital with him?

Yassir [06:03]:
I was there in the hospital with him in his bed, and he was in a coma, actually. And so these two Christians stood next to the bed of this child and they started to pray in the name of Jesus, a prayer which I have never heard before. And what moved me in their prayer, two things. First of all, they spoke to God as if they knew. Yeah. I mean, they spoke directly because I was used to a different type of prayer, but they just stood there and they started to talk and they started to speak to God as if they knew him personally.

Don [06:38]:
As if he's in the room.

Yassir [06:39]:
Exactly. So I said, well, where these people come from? And then. And the second thing that really moved me from their prayers, they prayed with love. They started to pray for this child as if they is their own.

Don [06:54]:
Their own child, Their own child.

Yassir [06:56]:
And I was so amazed. I said, well, where did this come from? Because my thinking and intentions and anything towards Christians was not a good one. And here they're coming to pray for this stranger. Exactly. For the good command of this child, that he will be healed. And the minute that they concluded their prayer and they said amen, this child opened his eyes for the first time in four weeks. Yeah. And life came back to him. And on that day, I realized, if these people believe in the real God, I'm not them. And if I believe in the real God, they are not. So I knew there is a difference. Something's wrong here, something is not. Yeah. And then one of those two Coptic Christians sat down with me after that, and he said to me, you know, the real miracle is not that God heals people. He can do that, but the real miracle that God loves you and he want to change your life, he want to change your heart, he want to give you a new identity, a new hope. I had no idea what he was talking about, but what he was saying touched me deeply in my heart. And so we had a conversation about Jesus. That was the first time ever, ever I spoke to a Christian. You know, it was dramatic.

Don [08:30]:
It was.

Yassir [08:30]:
Yeah, it was.

Don [08:31]:
And is your cousin better? He was healed.

Yassir [08:33]:
Yeah, he was healed and his life was restored and everything was in fine. Yeah. But on that evening, one of these two Coptic Christians sat down with me and shared with me the whole story of salvation.

Don [08:48]:
Wow.

Yassir [08:48]:
And he took time. And it started at 6 o' clock in the evening, and we concluded at 5, 4 o' clock in the morning.

Don [08:56]:
Eight hours of God. Yes.

Yassir [08:58]:
So with the prayer. Yeah. You know, he said to me, do you believe that Jesus is alive? I said to him, yes. And actually every Muslim believed that Jesus is alive. He said to me, if he is, if he is alive, you can talk to him. And I said, yes, actually I can talk to Him. And I prayed with him. So looking today back, you know, this was like 1990, when I look now back, you know, that day I made a decision for Christ. Not because I was convinced that the Bible is not corrupted or about the Trinity. These were all big issues for me. But what happened on that evening, looking back today, is God who touched my heart and helped me to come to get to know him. And I opened my heart, I prayed, and I said to Jesus, if you are the one that disputes person speaks about, you can come into my life and change my life. And this is what I could say to our viewers today. You know, conversion or to believe is not a matter of you have a better argument than mine or have a better argument than yours. But we come to know the Lord when he touches our hearts, you know, And Jesus said yes to everybody on this earth, but he will not force anybody to say yes to him unless somebody wants. And so that's why if anybody today is listening to us and is struggling with this whole issue of believing, not believing. Is Jesus real? Is not real? You know, my very simple advice would be talk to him.

Don [10:45]:
Just talk to him.

Yassir [10:46]:
Talk to him. Ask him.

Don [10:47]:
Open a conversation.

Yassir [10:48]:
Exactly.

Don [10:49]:
He's listening.

Yassir [10:49]:
He's reading, he's listening. He's listening. And this what happened to me. I talked to him and I gave him a chance. And Jesus changed my life. Today I'm totally a different person than before 1990.

Don [11:07]:
And since we don't have a lot of time, you had to run for your life.

Yassir [11:13]:
Yeah.

Don [11:14]:
And you ended up in Kenya. And my recent friend Walter and Kristel adopted you into their family. And then if you want to speak about that or. And then you ended up in Germany. So. Yeah, we have to be brief on that.

Yassir [11:32]:
But yeah, yeah. I mean, I lived those German missionary family Kenya, because I lost everything in Sudan, and they became truly my family.

Don [11:43]:
So when you came this experience in the hospital, were you a teenager still?

Yassir [11:48]:
Yes, yes. I was like in my. I was 19 or. Yeah, 1920. Yeah. But when I came to Kenya for study, I did not know anybody there, you know, and I felt really very lonely. I come from a very big family, very big clan. And you come to Kenya, different culture, different language, you know, no preparation. And I felt very, very alone. That was a terrible feeling. Or actually have anyone. I did not. I did not know anybody. And so I started to go to this church every Sunday. And then after church, I will just go back home to my small little room and, you know, just be by myself. I could not even eat because. Were you a student or you were just students? No, I was student. I went to Kenya to study.

Don [12:45]:
Yeah.

Yassir [12:45]:
I didn't have a small room. I was living in that room. And then Sunday I go to this church, Nairobi Chapel. And then every time after Sunday, I Just go back home and, you know, to cook something. But I could not even eat because in my culture, food test only in fellowship. We need some people. You need to eat together, you need a crowd, you know, that you can eat. And now you're just sitting here behind the four walls and alone with yourself. And. And so one day after church came a lady, you know, and she talked to me. And then she said, oh, what's your name? And then I said to her, my name is Yassir. And then she started to scream. Oh, we were looking for you. And that was Crystal.

Don [13:37]:
Okay.

Yassir [13:37]:
You know, so somebody told him that.

Don [13:39]:
That you were here.

Yassir [13:40]:
Yeah, I'm in Kenya. I did not know them, never met them. And they took me home on that Sunday after church.

Don [13:48]:
For dinner.

Yassir [13:49]:
Yes, for dinner. And so I went home and immediately, you know, I felt like, really, this is my family. So what happened? Like, every Sunday after church, I go with them home for lunch. We spend the rest of the day. And I could not wait till Sunday comes. So this is one thing that, you know, people need to understand. You know, when we leave Islam, it's not only leaving a religion behind us. You live a community, you leave your identity, you live your belonging. You live so many things that in the west today, they are not very important for many people. Yeah. So. And then Sunday after Sunday, till one day they said, well, why don't you move to us? Yeah. So. And I did move. And. And.

Don [14:39]:
And their kids were sort of around your age too.

Yassir [14:41]:
They were. No, no, they were younger. Younger. So I became the elder brother, the big brother.

Don [14:45]:
Yeah, yeah.

Yassir [14:46]:
Suddenly, which was, for me, the great.

Don [14:48]:
You had a family.

Yassir [14:49]:
Yes, yes, yes. So, you know, family is so important. And I know sometime because of difficulties, misunderstanding, we don't appreciate. But if. If anyone is hearing us today and that he still have a family and he can go and know where to belong to, even if there is tension, we should be thankful for the gift of God to us. Then I moved to Germany 1990, because. Got engaged to a German sister and we got married in 1999. And I've been living in Germany since then. So I still studied theology there and planted some churches. And then I got involved with BMBs, Muslim background believers across the globe, trying to organize them together. Yes.

Don [15:46]:
So as you look across the situation, I mean, you're aware. I'm aware in less detail than you are about what God is doing around the world when Muslims come into faith. I just talked to someone a few minutes ago about every time you meet a Muslim, there's A very good chance that he's already had a dream, he's waiting to talk. But the challenge is when they come to faith, do they have a home? Do they have a place? So you started this global community. Can you just tell us about that a little bit?

Yassir [16:23]:
Yeah. You know, like sometimes people think persecution is the number one problem for Muslim background believers. I would argue differently. Isolation and being alone, that's the most terrible thing because when you get persecuted, you are persecuted for something, for a set of belief that you believe in. But when you are alone and nobody want to embrace you, nobody wants to touch you, nobody wants to come even closer to you, that makes a whole lot of a difference. So loneliness, it is a big problem. And that's why we thought to provide a home for the MBBs. You know, people who left the Ummah of Islam, they became the followers of Christ, but at the same time they did not find their place in the church. Because the church still need not only to learn how to reach the Muslims, but how to integrate them, how to welcome them, how to welcome them, how to embrace and how to love them. And that's why we have a global initiatives that we call it Ekkios, it's Ecclesia von Kyrios, the Ecclesia of Jesus Christ. And there people, Muslim background believers across the globe are connected together because we come from this background.

Don [17:48]:
So is the age of. Sorry, this sounds comfortable, no problem. The age of social media and WhatsApp. And this is all makes this possible.

Yassir [17:57]:
Of course. Yeah, of course. Actually we have like, we communicate a lot with social media, digital churches because you see, like there are some people, we came to know the faith, they came to know Jesus. They don't have even a single church in the whole area where they live. Or they don't know Christians. Yeah, yes. What to do? We gather them online. And that's why you have a church online.

Don [18:23]:
So you have gathering groups. Yes. Using Facebook or WhatsApp?

Yassir [18:27]:
Yeah, Facebook, WhatsApp and also different Software. So those, those people, they have also the right not only to hear the gospel, but to grow into the grace of this gospel.

Don [18:41]:
And then I assume as much as you can, you try to connect people so they can hug each other.

Yassir [18:47]:
Of course, of course. You know, we need to connect to create fellowship. And to create fellowship it only happens through networking. And because the Muslim world is all also so diverse. So the BnB's world is also diverse. And that's why you need people all over who can collaborate, who can work together and say, well, like this church to take place.

Don [19:15]:
You recently were consecrated as a bishop. Can you explain the thinking around why that is important? Yeah.

Yassir [19:23]:
You know, we wanted to become church.

Don [19:26]:
Yeah.

Yassir [19:27]:
So like up to now MBBs either are in parachurches. Yeah. Or they belong to mission organizations. And I must say mission organizations did a fantastic job in this last decade of reaching to Muslims, discipling them.

Don [19:47]:
Yes.

Yassir [19:47]:
You know, this happened and we are very thankful for that and we need to continue with this. The missing point or the missing element in all of this was the ecclesia, the church that it could give this home that we spoke about. And many churches, for instance in the Middle east, they have a problem of integrating MBBs within the church because of the laws, because of the culture, because of so many things, you know, and that's why we, we thought to start the proper church for BMBs across the globe. But then in order not just, you know, like you meet me under the tree, you put your hands on me and then you say you are a pastor and go and lead people. We need accountability because when we're in Islam, we're accountable to the family, to the neighbors, to the system. And then you go to some churches, and especially free churches where they say to you, you could do it the way you wanted. Right. Yeah. But I believe the Christian faith, it cannot just be lived, lived like that. It has to have something.

Don [21:01]:
It needs a structure. Structure in a discipline.

Yassir [21:03]:
Exactly. And that's why I started the journey within the Anglican Church. And so to be ordained and consecrated for a very special purpose. And this special purpose is to take care of the MBBs globally who are unattached. Exactly, exactly. Well, I mean those MBBs who are already assimilated within the churches, they don't need us. Yeah. You know, if somebody is in a

Don [21:29]:
church, you can already establish it's good.

Yassir [21:31]:
Exactly. They don't need us. But if someone is in a meeting of a church, we need to provide this church for him. And then the other thing is

Don [21:45]:
it

Yassir [21:45]:
is a very fundamental, simple human right needs of conversion. Say, well, from today I don't want to be this, but I want to be that. And this is what Islam does not tolerate because of apostasy laws, because of all of these things.

Don [22:02]:
So is this new church advocating and trying to give protection and rights?

Yassir [22:07]:
So what we're trying to do is we'll advocate, we'll give a legitimacy, a belonging, a home. And this church is non geographical. It's not in a geography place fixed. But we orient ourselves after languages. Like you have the Fulani, Kurdish language groupings. Exactly. Yes. Yes.

Don [22:33]:
Wow.

Don [22:34]:
Can you just tell a story of God at work in this context just to encourage people?

Yassir [22:43]:
Well, I mean, I can read the story from the Middle East. Like sometime in the news, we hear one narrative about the Middle and about the Middle east that has to do with our attitude towards people, you know, and that's why in the Middle east at the moment, you can tell two stories. One story of the destruction of the killing. The longest war in history have been in the Middle East. Like, we fight each other since 1400 years, you know, and for that, we need to pray that God will bring his peace, will bring his shalom. That's one narrative. But the other narrative is in the midst of all of this, God is meeting people and changing their lives the same way he met Saul and made Paul out of him. We have so many underground churches in some countries where they think there is no Christian, you know, and that is actually is for the glory of Jesus Christ.

Don [24:00]:
Amen.

Yassir [24:00]:
Yeah.

Don [24:02]:
Is there one actual story of someone that you could tell just for people can get a picture what the kinds of things God's doing?

Yassir [24:11]:
Yeah, well, you know, there's a very recent. It is a Sad story. In 2018, I baptized a family in Sweden, in Syria. And the head of the family, his name is Khalid. His name, he was kind of the pastor of this church. And when these last few days, there was a very big tension between Israel and Iran. Iran started to fire missiles in Syria. So in the midst of this war, militant Muslim groups broke into the house of his brother. He was. He was not even on the street fighting with other people against anybody. They came in and sadly, they slaughtered all of them, the whole family, in one day. But this incident helped others to pose a question. Would those people revenge? Would they hit back?

Don [25:25]:
Would they take revenge?

Yassir [25:26]:
Or would they do what they do? Because our culture is a castle of revenge. And these brothers, they surprised everybody when they kept silent, as I said that in the Bible.

Don [25:40]:
So the ones who survived did not take revenge.

Yassir [25:43]:
Yes. And also their relatives, because their relatives could also go and look and find those Muslims somewhere and do harm for them. But they did not do that. And through this, the killing of Khalid became a huge witness to the Muslim community. And that's why, from my own family, from my own life, I say that responding to hatred with hatred, that's not only human, but makes us also sick because, you know, we need to forgive in order to be free in Jesus Christ. So what happened is. This family that was slaughtered became a Witness for the people in the village. And then some people came to know the Lord through that. Yeah. So that's also happening today of the

Don [26:47]:
terrible, suffering, violence, God's work.

Yassir [26:49]:
Yeah. And that's why, you know, I say that to respond to hatred with love. For that, we need Jesus Christ. Only Jesus, only Jesus gives us, help us and gives us this capacity.

Don [27:02]:
Yes.

Don [27:06]:
Final word. We're almost at your half hour mark. If you think of someone in their 20s looking around, asking God what to do or what they could do, any word to them just to challenge or encourage them.

Yassir [27:22]:
Yeah. Well, first of all, I think they can start to pray and to pray more for the Muslim world. It is very, very important. I think, you know, today, many Muslims coming to know him because the church prayed. That's one thing that everybody could do. And you can pray for the Muslim world. And I always say, if you can take one minute a day and pray for the Muslim world, that will change the world.

Don [27:50]:
We just heard in an event a couple days ago, one woman from Bangladesh, I think she was praying for seven years for Iran. Never met. In religion.

Yassir [28:02]:
The same thing. Same thing. So Jesus is building his church and we need to be in alignment with him in prayer. And as we pray through the Holy Spirit, you know, that moves the heart.

Don [28:14]:
He guides us.

Yassir [28:16]:
Guides us. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the second thing is what the global church and what people are hearing us could also examine is the quality of our faith. You know, so is my faith rooted in Christ or in something else, in materialism or to be more successful is built upon what. And this is. We need to discover again to pray and to proclaim Christ and to be absolute sure of that. Sure of Jesus Christ. And sometimes I see why the church in the west generally is collapsing down because of a low Christology. Jesus is just your companion. My friend. He's our friend. But then you lose the A, the O, and the majesty of Jesus, you know, the same one that we read his story from, from the book of Isaiah, you know, he died on the cross for us. He endured suffering. So suffering is part of being a Christian.

Don [29:38]:
Well, thank you for taking some time. God bless you in your ministry and your travels. May protect you and yeah, thank you. In the show notes, we're fine to put a little bit of information about the organizer if they want to follow up.

Yassir [29:55]:
Yes, actually www.ekkios.com. This is the homepage. And then we have also Facebook and Twitter account. People can reach out to us in a good way.

Don [30:08]:
We'll put that in the Show Notes so people can follow up and pray and get involved. Thank you so much.

Don [30:14]:
It appears to me that God has clearly raised up Yassir for such a time as this. But my experience also tells me that people getting high visibility like this are often under attack by the enemy. So as you turn off this video or turn off the podcast, I encourage you to pray for Brother Yassir that God will protect him and continue to use him in a mighty way. I also remind you to let other people know about this podcast to make comments. Please do, and give thumbs up to different episodes. The more we do that, the more people will be able to hear these stories of what God is doing around the world.

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