Debating Imams, Rescuing Daughters: Ghazala Shafique’s Story

00:00:00.00
Don
Welcome back to another episode of the Reflexio Podcast. I'm your host, Don Little, and today you're in for a remarkable treat. I just completed recording this interview with Shafiq, Ghazala Shafique from Pakistan.

Quite a remarkable story, and I encourage you to stay through to the end and listen to her final challenge. I asked her what she would like to say to the Christians in the rest of the world, and especially in the Western world, who live in freedom and comfort. And her challenge is quite stirring. So welcome to another episode and I will move right into our conversation with Gazala.

00:00:49.41
Don
So welcome, Ghazala, to the Reflexio podcast. We're delighted to have you with us today.

00:00:55.75
Ghazala Shafique
Thank you. It's an honor. And I really love this opportunity to talk to people globally.

00:01:02.69
Don
Can you just briefly introduce yourself a little bit about something, the things you're involved in, and then we're going to get into detail. But first, introduce yourself.

00:01:15.24
Ghazala
Well, I'm known as Pastor Ghazala Shafiq here in my home country, Pakistan, that is Pakistan. And I'm a human rights activist and I am a mother of four children.

00:01:35.62
Don
Oh, wow. That's nothing.

00:01:36.58
Ghazala
Yeah. And my husband is also a pastor and I e definitely do lot of work according to the will of God. and The pastorship is one thing, but there are other things which I am doing.

00:01:56.20
Ghazala
So if you write my name on Ghazala Shafiq on Google, so you can find me there also.

00:02:02.72
Don
Okay.

00:02:03.18
Ghazala
Yeah.

00:02:04.01
Don
You're a lot more famous than I am. Yes. So just to start off, can you just share a little of the story of how you came to know Jesus, your faith journey? Not the big long version, but the short version.

00:02:20.34
Don
sure.

00:02:21.29
Ghazala
Well, my long version will take three, four hours. So, yeah.

00:02:24.96
Don
Yes. I'm sure

00:02:27.37
Ghazala
Well, you know that Pakistan is populated with a Muslim population, with 98% are Muslim, and 2% or some say 3% are other minorities, Hindu and Sikh and Christians.

00:02:47.49
Ghazala
So I was born um in the... majority group people of Pakistan. I did my education, I did masters in a economics and then I went to UK where my mother's family is settled in UK.

00:03:08.42
Ghazala
So the

00:03:08.58
Don
okay

00:03:11.55
Ghazala
I was doing certified accountancy, studying kind certified accountancy there.

00:03:18.15
Don
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:03:19.01
Ghazala
And then I got, I came back on vacations to my homeland, to my parents' house.

00:03:29.25
Ghazala
There I started working in an evening college. That was an evening college and there I met my husband.

00:03:40.74
Ghazala
And he was also teaching there. And I started teaching to the college students. My subject was economics and my husband was teaching to the college students. His subject was science because he has done in biology.

00:03:57.63
Ghazala
So there I met him and oh our marriage is like a out of love story. People don't like ah they don't allow,

00:04:07.68
Don
okay

00:04:13.35
Ghazala
It is considered bad here in Pakistan for girls or even for men to go for a love marriage.

00:04:23.27
Don
Yes, it's better to be arranged by the family, right?

00:04:26.39
Ghazala
Yeah, it is respected and accepted, the are arranged marriages. But men, there are plans of God then things get done so it can happen so our love story is very short and very quick only it consists over a period of one month so we liked each other and the principal realized

00:04:42.50
Don
Yes, things happen.

00:04:58.88
Ghazala
that there is something going on between Ghazala and Shafiq. So he called me and he said, do you like Shafiq? I said, yes. Do you want to marry I said, yes.

00:05:11.17
Ghazala
And he said, do you know that he is Christian? And I went silent and I said, I don't know about his faith because in his name, is a common name which the mostly the majority group people give their children, to their children.

00:05:31.28
Don
Okay.

00:05:31.43
Ghazala
So that was a shocking news for me.

00:05:31.62
Don
So you didn't know he was a Christian until this day.

00:05:36.16
Ghazala
So then the I came to him and I as i asked him, why did you not tell me that you are a Christian?

00:05:48.99
Ghazala
And he said, you did not ask me. And he was very right in saying this. He said, you did not ask me and I did not tell you. But by that time, we like had decided we liked each other.

00:06:03.52
Ghazala
And or then we decided that we will get married, but we will not force each other to change the creed or the faith.

00:06:11.69
Don
Mm-hmm. Right.

00:06:14.95
Ghazala
So our marriage is very interesting. Once if I am in love with a person then and my husband is with me, then he he's a poet also.

00:06:25.92
Ghazala
So he wrote a poetry about our marriage also because it was very romantic big and challenging situation.

00:06:29.79
Don
Very romantic.

00:06:35.30
Ghazala
And when his parents came to know that he's going to marry a girl from the majority group people, so they disowned him they published on the newspaper that we have nothing to do with him we uh they rejected him as a son they put in the newspaper so but thank God things got done. We got married with very difficulties in a challenging situation and after marriage like uh eight days of my marriage uh i had to fly to UK just for the security reasons and the situations and the threats surround us.

00:07:16.85
Don
Right.

00:07:19.46
Ghazala
So I left Shafiq in Pakistan and I went to UK again. They, my mother's whole family is settled in UK. All my mother's parents and brothers and sisters.

00:07:35.65
Ghazala
So when I reached there, I found out after sometime that I am pregnant also. So that was also a shocking thing for me being all alone and handle all these things.

00:07:53.06
Don
Mm-hmm.

00:07:54.08
Ghazala
Then I came back on in December the same year it was in 1992. So I came back and my baby first baby was expected to be born on in February.

00:08:12.64
Ghazala
And I met with an accident. I fell down and ah my water broke and then I had to be rushed to the hospital. And my first daughter, Sijal, was born on 25th of December.

00:08:27.24
Ghazala
And she was premature.

00:08:30.98
Don
This is premature and less than a year after your wedding, yeah?

00:08:36.35
Ghazala
So, ah When I came to my in-laws and they were so happy, oh, Christmas baby, Christmas baby!

00:08:48.64
Ghazala
And I'm going like, no, no, no. She's not a Christmas baby. She's a girl of a mother which belongs to another faith.

00:09:00.99
Don
Yes.

00:09:01.12
Ghazala
So ah secretly or privately, I made her birth certificate from the faith I come from. And my husband privately made her birth certificate with the Christian faith.

00:09:16.58
Don
So you got two birth certificates.

00:09:17.99
Ghazala
what that because And then we gave her a name. Her name is from ah a Hindi background. It's a Hindi name.

00:09:27.06
Don
OK.

00:09:28.42
Ghazala
It means a pure. Because my other three children have Hebrew names.

00:09:33.76
Don
Okay.

00:09:33.79
Ghazala
But we gave her a Hindi name because we decided that we will not teach her any faith. He will not teach his faith and I will not teach her my faith.

00:09:40.69
Don
Okay.

00:09:45.47
Ghazala
So when she will grow up, she will decide about herself that which faith she wants to follow.

00:09:51.29
Don
I've heard this happen, tried to be done in other situations. It usually doesn't work very well.

00:09:58.43
Ghazala
so then once my daughter got really sick very badly sick and one of my husband's ah friend who is a pastor ah he came to visit the family and my husband said oh one pastor is here so please give me Sigil, she was like one and half months one and half year old at that time, and he said that let this pastor pray over her so she can get healed.

00:10:21.28
Don
Right.

00:10:29.44
Ghazala
I said, no, no, no, no pastor can pray over her because she does not belong to your faith. So I don't allow you.

00:10:38.18
Ghazala
So that time was the time when my husband said that he got really challenged and he felt so helpless that he cannot even get the prayers done for the daughter also, sick daughter.

00:10:53.51
Ghazala
So that time he went and bought the book which I was reciting or reading according to my faith.

00:11:05.83
Ghazala
But he bought the book with the translation because yeah,

00:11:10.34
Don
Into Urdu or into English.

00:11:15.55
Ghazala
no, in Urdu because normally people read in Arabic.

00:11:21.60
Don
Yes.

00:11:21.76
Ghazala
So they don't read the translation.

00:11:24.19
Don
Yes, I understand.

00:11:24.39
Ghazala
So that was ah my husband when he bought the book and he said to me that he wants to study it. If he finds any truth in it, then he can accept my faith. And I was so happy.

00:11:39.87
Ghazala
And the same way I as told him that if I will also read the Bible, if I find the truth, then I will accept your faith.

00:11:51.01
Ghazala
Because my husband was born in a Christian family, but he was not going to church.

00:11:57.08
Don
He wasn't really an active believer.

00:11:59.04
Ghazala
Not actively, he was just a nominal believer. So after my marriage, two and a half years went and then we started studying both the books.

00:12:11.23
Ghazala
And when I started reading with the translation, There were two things which really challenged me. One of us, the sacrifice of ah like the majority group people, Muslims celebrate two festivals, big festivals.

00:12:31.62
Ghazala
One is in a remembrance of Abraham.

00:12:37.15
Don
Yes.

00:12:37.31
Ghazala
They think Abraham's son was taken to be sacrificed as ah as a lamb.

00:12:37.39
Don
Yes.

00:12:46.05
Ghazala
So he asked me, what is the story of a sacrifice of a son of Abraham? So I told him according to my faith that God asked ah Abraham to sacrifice his ah beloved son.

00:13:03.75
Ghazala
So he took Ishmael. So my husband asked me, what was the name of Ishmael's mother? I said, Hagar. And he said, like Hagar was kicked out of the house and she was living in the desert and how um if mother a mother gave her son to be offered at as a sacrifice.

00:13:32.48
Ghazala
And whereas he, because I know my faith very well, previous faith, and ah I knew that he had another wife also and he had a son from Hagar.

00:13:46.53
Don
Sarai.

00:13:48.93
Ghazala
So that really challenged me, his question really challenged me and he said okay that time we had our daughter she was one and a half year old and he said okay I kick you out from my house and then uh after six seven years I come to you and I say So, Ghazala gave me a Sijal. God has asked me to offer her as a sacrifice.

00:14:14.11
Ghazala
So, will you give a Sijal as sacrifice? I said, no.

00:14:17.97
Don
I've never heard that line. That's good.

00:14:19.94
Ghazala
Like I said, I will kick you out from my house and I will not give you my daughter.

00:14:25.46
Don
Of course.

00:14:25.47
Ghazala
And I will um I will ask you to sacrifice the children of the, that wife which you are living with.

00:14:35.39
Don
Yes.

00:14:35.91
Ghazala
That gave me a thought that if I cannot give my daughter to be offered as a sacrifice, how Hagar, when she is in the wilderness, she's been kicked out from the house.

00:14:51.46
Ghazala
And she has no one to take care of her. And the Muslims give ah much respect to sons. And I am not ready to give my daughter and how a mother can give a son to be offered as a sacrifice where he is the only hope for that that mother.

00:14:58.77
Don
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

00:15:10.53
Ghazala
So it really challenged my thought that how this happened, how this happened. So ah he asked me, can you show me this ah from the book? And I said, yes, ah it is in in the book, but I don't know where is the reference in the Quran.

00:15:29.15
Ghazala
So I went to the area cleric and I asked him that where is the reference for that? And he said, he said, I know there is a reference, but I don't remember now, but after three days.

00:15:41.93
Don
I don't know where.

00:15:44.35
Ghazala
So when I came home, the very first time my husband gave me Bible to read the story of Abraham and Isaac. And I read the book of Genesis from chapter 12 till chapter 22, where it talks about Abraham, Sarah, and the birth of Hagar, Ishmael and birth of Isaac.

00:16:10.88
Ghazala
But I when I read, I read the chapter 22, which talks about the sacrifice. But no one was sacrificed, but the son which was taken as a sacrifice. So chapter 22 mentions five times the name of Isaac in the book of Genesis.

00:16:31.97
Ghazala
...that he was taken for the sacrifice. When I read this all ah account in the Bible, I thought it's more reasonable, it's more logical, and it's more makes sense to a mother or to anybody.

00:16:44.43
Don
It makes more sense. It does

00:16:50.02
Ghazala
Now I went again to the cleric and he said, oh, he gave me the reference. from the Quran and which is Surah 37 and verses from 100 till 112.

00:17:07.43
Ghazala
It does give the account of sacrifice, but it does not give the name of the son which was taken to be offered as a sacrifice.

00:17:16.77
Ghazala
Whereas when Ibraham saw this dream and he tells to his son and calls his son, ah, to share this dream and when he calls him the word which has been used in the Quran that is kala yabonaya which means he called his younger son. So I knew that the younger son was Isaac and the older son was Ismail so and even in the verse 107 it says that we gave him a good news of Isaac.

00:17:39.93
Don
Right. Okay. Okay.

00:17:55.43
Ghazala
Whereas Ishmael's name is not mentioned in all this 100 to 112 verses. So I went to the cleric, mosque cleric again, I said, it says that it was Isaac, it was not Ishmael.

00:18:12.03
Ghazala
He says, no, no, especially the word which ah kala yabunaya he said, in our culture, this is very common in a tea shops and in food shops they employ a young boy 10 years old 12 years old ah and everybody calls him chota chota means younger so it's a very common term and it's a very common practice here. So when I said this was the chota son, means younger son which he was which he called the cleric said oh he was calling him out of love. I said, like, the reality is this, that he was younger and the word has been used for a younger son.

00:19:05.25
Ghazala
And Ishmael was the bigger son, older son, and Isaac was the younger son. So this was first thing which really challenged me that I need to study more and I need to go further in details and find the truth.

00:19:21.89
Ghazala
because this is important.

00:19:22.21
Don
So um because you said you could take four hours to tell the story, can you bring it to a climax here?

00:19:33.78
Ghazala
Well, that was like a starting point. Then I started studying both the faiths, both the books. Then I found out the truth about Jesus Christ who said that, I am the way, am the truth, and am the life. And he has the full authority to give us salvation, to give us life. He not only was sacrificed, he was given his life for our salvation, but he said in John chapter 14,

00:20:10.88
Ghazala
ah that I'm going to prepare the place for you and I will come back and I will take you with me.

00:20:17.72
Don
Yeah.

00:20:18.02
Ghazala
And whereas I don't see that that ah authority or that claims in other faith. So we both, ah my me, my husband, both um a accepted Jesus together, we were baptized together, and then I wanted to know Bible because I read the whole Bible in one month when I came to know about the truth.

00:20:45.79
Ghazala
I read it, but I could not understand it. I said, I want to know, I want to go to a madrasa or school where I can learn it properly.

00:20:55.27
Don
Yes. Wow.

00:20:56.07
Ghazala
So then we were given admission to the St. Thomas Theological College for four years, Masters of Divinity. And we both did the seminary together.

00:21:08.16
Don
wow

00:21:08.55
Ghazala
We ordained together. I was ordained as a deaconess and my husband as a pastor with the Church of Pakistan. So now we both are working in the church and in the ministry together.

00:21:24.69
Don
Wow, what a start.

00:21:26.72
Ghazala
Yeah.

00:21:27.77
Don
When, you know, um I was introduced to you by your son-in-law, Aamir, and um we were talking and I said, you know, I'd love to interview some women. And he said, oh you've got to interview my mother-in-law. She's amazing. So I said, tell me about her. And then we talked a couple of weeks ago just about the many things you're involved in. Yeah.

00:21:51.35
Don
It's my sense is, you than what you said before, and but you can clarify now, your main call, your main burden is a sense of helping the minorities, the ones who have very few resources, who are ah set aside by the society.

00:22:08.78
Don
Is that your primary call? Does that shape almost everything you do? Yeah.

00:22:15.49
Ghazala
ah Yeah, because ah when I read Bible, Jesus um not only ah gives us...

00:22:20.84
Don
Amen. Amen.

00:22:24.12
Ghazala
some salvation but he has appointed us to do good work in this world when he brings us out of darkness into his light so he makes us light also so we need to shine uh on those areas or on those places seats where there is a darkness so and being uh in our society um things are very difficult for everybody in Pakistan.

00:22:56.03
Ghazala
But when it comes to minorities, and I e was coming from majority into minority now.

00:22:56.36
Don
Yeah.

00:23:03.04
Don
yeah

00:23:03.78
Ghazala
So that was another challenging point. The church does not accept because of fear and threat and all that. So, ah

00:23:16.74
Ghazala
but thanks God, i try to do everything which Jesus wants me to do. And especially when I read um ch Matthew, Gospel of Matthew, chapter 25, verse 31 to onward, when Jesus is coming back to judge the world ah with his angels.

00:23:26.35
Don
Right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:23:42.75
Ghazala
So he's going to ask six practical questions. I was thirsty, i was hungry, i was sick, I was in prison, i was foreigner.

00:23:55.07
Ghazala
So all are six practical questions which he's going to ask us.

00:24:00.81
Don
Yeah.

00:24:00.87
Ghazala
And if I am a believer, if I I read Bible, I'll say my prayers, I fast, I ah I fast, I do tithes and everything.

00:24:00.99
Don
Mm-hmm.

00:24:12.16
Ghazala
So these six practical things should be part of my life. So that is the main um drive of my ministry.

00:24:25.60
Ghazala
the basics. So because I think that ah God has done a great job for us, great job for us.

00:24:32.38
Don
Amen.

00:24:33.28
Ghazala
If we do read book of Isaiah chapter 53, that that what else? ah Like, this is a great. I say that Christians are so lucky, so blessed people, blessed nation, that they have a loving father, they have a loving king, they have loving and helping a Holy Spirit.

00:25:00.61
Ghazala
So it's up to us. It's now in the hands of the people They have to make decisions that where they want to go.

00:25:12.39
Ghazala
Do they want to go to live in a forever life, life after death with the Jesus Christ in ah in his presence or we have to live in the fire or to be thrown in the... So ah this is in our hands.

00:25:33.41
Don
Mm-hmm.

00:25:33.86
Ghazala
god has given us bible word of god which guides us through all these things so that's the my basic drive or basic motivation to do all these things

00:25:47.39
Don
So um in our previous conversation, you were saying that you felt called to the minorities, the ones who were neglected and left side.

00:25:57.04
Ghazala
yes

00:25:57.75
Don
And in Pakistan, Christians are a huge minority, I mean, ah a small minority, and they're very much ostracized. and the women who are Christians, even more so.

00:26:09.51
Don
Can you tell about how that started and some of the things you've done to help women and Christian minority women?

00:26:15.78
Ghazala
yeah i will Yeah, I would love to tell that women are not treated well in our society.

00:26:23.25
Don
Yes.

00:26:23.68
Ghazala
They are 50% 51% of this our society. And they are like marginalized. Even the minority majority people women are ah treated very badly.

00:26:37.15
Don
yes

00:26:37.28
Ghazala
But when it comes to women of minority faith, it the life is miserable for them. And I coming from majority group of people into minority group of people and seeing the persecution and the faith and the...

00:26:56.29
Ghazala
ah badly, how badly they are treated by the society and the church also does not give the due respect to women, which I see in the Bible.

00:27:11.44
Don
Yes.

00:27:11.62
Ghazala
so

00:27:11.72
Don
Uh-huh.

00:27:13.22
Ghazala
I started, i share you an interesting um event of my youth.

00:27:21.57
Don
yes

00:27:22.23
Ghazala
At that time, I was like in school student and the 10th grade student and i got all my hair shaved.

00:27:33.15
Ghazala
I had a very long hair, but I'm always in our society in Pakistan, it's very common during summer.

00:27:35.93
Don
ahha

00:27:41.70
Ghazala
boys, they all shave off their hair because it's very hot here.

00:27:46.00
Don
Right. Yeah.

00:27:47.71
Ghazala
So they, like, anytime they go out, they can have a haircut. They can do whatever they want to do with their hair. So... I thought why the girls don't have hair.

00:28:00.19
Don
Can't do the same.

00:28:01.57
Ghazala
So they should have the power to decide about their hair. So that was the my nature that we should be given the full authority over ourselves.

00:28:15.68
Don
Yes.

00:28:15.84
Ghazala
So that's how um ah my nature is. And when I am coming from that position to into a minority and So I felt the more responsibility. So you will be surprised to know and to hear all the audience that I'm the first registered a woman pastor here in Pakistan.

00:28:41.70
Ghazala
And I'm the first woman debater. I'm the first woman apologist.

00:28:49.95
Don
Wow.

00:28:50.19
Ghazala
I'm the first, say, a woman who has started a church among different um communities or different faith-based communities.

00:29:04.26
Don
is

00:29:04.58
Ghazala
So, and now recently I have started Women Pastors Council of Pakistan. I am the first woman who ordained six other women art to be pastors.

00:29:19.59
Ghazala
So...

00:29:20.12
Don
Amen.

00:29:22.18
Ghazala
The lot of work needed to be done.

00:29:26.91
Don
Yes.

00:29:27.78
Ghazala
There is 8 billion people in Pakistan, in the world, and the only 2.75 billion are believers. So we are called, we are ordained, and we are expected to share our faith with others. And I feel that the women are the most effective, most powerful channel to share the gospel with the me the Muslim community also.

00:29:59.49
Don
Can you explain why that why you believe they're more most powerful, the women?

00:29:59.68
Ghazala
going him

00:30:06.91
Ghazala
Because ah I believe at the time of crucifixion, All the disciples left Jesus. And the women were the only one who were following even at time of this ah persecution, this time of difficulties.

00:30:27.04
Ghazala
They kept sitting there unless until they saw that which is the grave where the Jesus is kept.

00:30:35.92
Don
Yes.

00:30:36.65
Ghazala
Muslims make um this... um

00:30:43.01
Ghazala
They object this, they have this objection. And because the disciples left Jesus and there is no evidence, there is no proof of a Jesus' grave.

00:30:53.76
Ghazala
So we have in the Bible that women were there and they saw Jesus. that where he is kept.

00:31:00.35
Don
yes

00:31:02.21
Ghazala
And women were the first who reached at the grave. And women were the first who were told by the angels to go and tell the brothers that Jesus is risen.

00:31:06.80
Don
Events.

00:31:16.23
Ghazala
And women were the first who were called by the Jesus Christ.

00:31:16.45
Don
event

00:31:20.39
Ghazala
They worshiped him, the risen Jesus Christ. And Jesus also asked them, go and tell the brothers that he's risen.

00:31:31.91
Ghazala
And the church was built on this testimony of the woman that the Jesus is risen. So I feel God and the angels of heaven have ordained women to go and tell the world that Jesus is risen and he's our hope.

00:31:48.80
Ghazala
So that's...

00:31:49.41
Don
I love it.

00:31:49.41
Ghazala
so that'

00:31:51.55
Don
i love what you're saying. um Can you just elaborate just a bit more in terms of in terms of your experience, how women who understand this call are effective in in evangelism, say, among the majority people in a special way? They got some a particular...

00:32:13.35
Don
angle that helps them to be very effective other than their passion

00:32:19.47
Ghazala
Like passion, like passion is must, but though on the other hand, you say that ah women, i I feel the women are more strong in making decisions and women are ah like, um so it's a man's, you see men are,

00:32:43.07
Ghazala
um they can show rudeness to men. But if a woman is talking to a man, they listen more carefully.

00:32:53.57
Ghazala
They show more respect.

00:32:53.83
Don
Okay. Okay.

00:32:56.13
Ghazala
And this is always an advantage for the woman that when we talk to the new people, group of people, being women, they not only show us respect, they welcome us and they listen to us.

00:33:09.95
Ghazala
And women have more respect I feel this. I feel this, that they have more soft conversation. They are more soft to express the faith and they are good in storytelling also.

00:33:19.32
Don
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:33:25.39
Ghazala
The story of salvation from the word of God.

00:33:25.86
Don
Yes. Ah.

00:33:28.96
Ghazala
And I saved whole my family also. So, I work a variety of communities and I find always when I go with women, like nobody opens door for maybe men.

00:33:46.80
Ghazala
But if a woman is knocking at the door or is going somewhere, the people are more welcoming.

00:33:53.57
Don
Yes, they can they're not afraid, they're trusting.

00:33:54.37
Ghazala
So, yeah, they are trusted.

00:33:56.41
Don
Yes, that's beautiful.

00:33:57.95
Ghazala
So that's how... I found it very helpful when I visit with women, I go out with women and like we use different patterns to reach to ah different communities.

00:34:13.89
Ghazala
So ah women are my strength because I find it very helpful. Yeah.

00:34:20.48
Don
So maybe that's a natural ah segue into one of the things that I was amazed to hear, and you mentioned just a few minutes ago, is that you were the first woman debater.

00:34:32.45
Don
So I understand that you've had a number of very prominent debates with Muslim sheikhs and Muslim leaders, public debates. Can you tell me how that came about and what God is what god has been doing through these debates?

00:34:46.04
Don
Yeah.

00:34:48.03
Ghazala
Like ah we have a channel called Christian Debate Academy on YouTube also and on the Facebook also.

00:34:53.21
Don
Yes.

00:34:56.74
Ghazala
So since we I know the both the faiths, the Islam and the Christianity, so when I read Bible, the New Testament is written to remove the misconceptions of new faith.

00:35:15.04
Don
yes

00:35:15.81
Ghazala
the all the misconceptions which were existing ah where the apostles were preaching so to remain remove the misconceptions is our duty so there are lot of misconceptions about Christian faith among the Muslim world so when since I know this part also and the

00:35:22.56
Don
Yes. Yes.

00:35:27.78
Don
yes

00:35:41.70
Ghazala
both ah books I know very well.

00:35:44.61
Don
yes

00:35:44.83
Ghazala
So when they ask ask questions with me and when I answer from the Muslim theological

00:35:54.18
Don
Yeah.

00:35:55.18
Ghazala
perspective, so they find it ah strange and The other thing which is very much important to know for the Christians that the Bible says, you will know the truth and truth will set you free.

00:36:11.87
Ghazala
And truth is the word of God. And we have the authority. So when we speak about this truth, when we have truth in ourself, so it sets others free. So when we talk to Muslims and we, many then they love to ask questions to me.

00:36:32.19
Ghazala
So in public places when they come, so when they ask me, I openly to ah talk. ah God has given me extraordinary boldness that I'm thankful to God.

00:36:46.02
Don
Okay. Yes.

00:36:49.83
Ghazala
Thankful to God.

00:36:50.00
Don
Yes.

00:36:50.88
Ghazala
And God has given me a life partner, my husband Shafiq. He is extraordinary bold. And ah we believe that we are called to serve the people of Pakistan, not only for the rights of women, not only for the rights of the persecuted, but the most important task is to reach to the people who don't know the truth.

00:37:17.76
Ghazala
So, we have to explain them the truth.

00:37:17.84
Don
Yeah. Right. Yes.

00:37:20.19
Ghazala
So, our debates are public on the Christian Debate Academy YouTube channel and they are very much ah heard in our neighbor but neighboring countries because ah mostly debates are in English.

00:37:38.08
Ghazala
so our people don't follow English. So our debates are in Urdu.

00:37:42.08
Don
right yes

00:37:44.48
Ghazala
And that's ah very helpful for the people of India and Pakistan and our neighboring countries because Urdu is the language which is most understood.

00:37:56.39
Don
Yes. Yes.

00:37:56.48
Ghazala
And we we find it very effective and very like informative for the people, the phone calls which we receive. And it's not only that it's... a answering or removing the misconceptions of Muslims, but it gives more confidence to our Christian youth also, because when they work um ah here in Pakistan,

00:38:24.13
Don
yes

00:38:28.80
Ghazala
where the 97% are Muslims and the organizations and the offices and the schools and the universities and the colleges, they all are crowded with the Muslim students. so And they think this this is their first duty as a Muslim. They think that they have to, whenever they find any Christian or any Hindu, they invite them to their faith.

00:38:53.60
Ghazala
So we teach them that how to answer them, how to defend your faith. So I am being ah but an apologist and a debater.

00:39:04.54
Ghazala
So we do both jobs.

00:39:04.93
Don
so would you

00:39:06.36
Ghazala
Thank you.

00:39:07.39
Don
when you do the debates, you they're public, but they're online. that You don't have a big hall and you the two of you stand up and debate in a big in a big room with lots of audience, or do you do those two?

00:39:19.33
Ghazala
No, we don't do with a lot of audience because in we do in a very, only three or four Muslims are allowed or three or four Christians are un allowed.

00:39:31.13
Don
Okay.

00:39:31.23
Ghazala
We record it and we put it for the YouTube channel for the viewers. because when we don't um allow the audience because if somebody during um debate gets ah annoyed or gets angry, so there can be something a dangerous.

00:39:38.34
Don
Right.

00:39:49.13
Don
Yeah.

00:39:52.61
Don
Bad thing happened.

00:39:53.05
Ghazala
and

00:39:53.83
Don
Yes.

00:39:53.92
Ghazala
Yeah, something bad. So we don't allow only two or three people are allowed from Muslim side or two or three people are allowed from Christian side.

00:40:01.52
Don
Okay. So it's a small it's a studio debate rather than a public debate in that sense.

00:40:02.55
Ghazala
Yeah.

00:40:07.11
Don
in It's in your studio.

00:40:07.17
Ghazala
yeah Public debate is not possible. Public debate is not possible in Pakistan.

00:40:11.52
Don
Right. Okay.

00:40:12.32
Ghazala
ah you But we are thankful that the YouTube channel or social media is available for to offer it.

00:40:18.49
Don
Yes. And so Amir, or amur he explained that a number of fairly prominent Muslim leaders have come to faith through these debates.

00:40:30.56
Don
Is that what I heard correctly?

00:40:33.93
Ghazala
That's true. That's true.

00:40:36.03
Don
Is there any story you can tell about that or just some comment on that?

00:40:41.55
Ghazala
well

00:40:44.06
Don
Obviously, you don't want to get someone in trouble, but...

00:40:47.53
Ghazala
well one of uh my uh short clip went ah very viral with the one very famous cleric of Pakistan so then he started uh doing research work he started reading the both the books and finally he came to faith but fine then he had to leave Pakistan unfortunately he can he's not in Pakistan anymore his family

00:41:16.32
Don
is he active Is he active in social media himself as an apologist?

00:41:21.87
Ghazala
not before he was but not now he cannot because he's very uh famous and he will get it yes for him but he's keeping his faith his

00:41:22.72
Don
No.

00:41:32.93
Don
Too dangerous. Yeah. Wow.

00:41:39.80
Don
Yeah.

00:41:39.75
Ghazala
family left him for his new faith in Jesus and he sacrificed his everything but he's keeping this new faith. Thanks God. There are many testimonies but like being here we have to be careful about ourselves and about others also but thanks God I work not only among the majority group people but

00:41:50.17
Don
So.

00:41:59.71
Don
Exactly.

00:42:07.65
Ghazala
I told you that I work for a different variety of communities. I have a church, i founded a church among Hindu background believers.

00:42:12.35
Don
Yes.

00:42:17.02
Don
Hmm.

00:42:18.11
Ghazala
ah Three months back, we started a new church well fellowship. not When I say church, it does not mean a building because it can be a house church fellowships among Sikh community.

00:42:30.08
Don
A house church, yeah.

00:42:33.44
Don
Mm-hmm.

00:42:35.27
Ghazala
one of their girl, young girl, 13 years old was kidnapped and taken away. So we helped her to rescue her. So when she was rescued and we had a friendship with the family and help them.

00:42:54.21
Ghazala
So that's how we started. We have got ah an opening going there and telling them about Jesus and telling them about the love of God.

00:42:58.94
Don
No fellowship.

00:43:04.32
Ghazala
And it's been three months we are going there also. So thanks God that ah like variety of ministry I'm doing, it's not only reaching to Gentiles, but as I work for the women rights also, especially the our young daughters, the minority's young girls, 12 years, 13 years, 10 years old.

00:43:32.35
Ghazala
They are kidnapped, they are taken away and then they are converted to Islam and then they are married off to 45 years old, 50 years old men, much older of their age and ah oh then they are separated from their family through much legal struggle we rescue them and even when we rescue them then their life is still in danger because they say they are Muslims now so we have started we have rescued through our legal team 22 girls one sick one Hindu and one Muslim and other Christian girls then i established uh

00:44:16.06
Ghazala
ah shelter for those girls also we not only rescue them then we give them counseling that rehabilitation to make them a strong member of the society so my daughter takes care of that shelter also yeah

00:44:18.82
Don
Mm-hmm.

00:44:31.75
Don
So those of us, you know, I visited Pakistan once, but when Pakistan is in the news in the world, the story of girls being kidnapped and married to Muslims is is fairly well known.

00:44:47.33
Don
how Can you explain a little bit more? How do you actually rescue them? i mean how does this happen? Is it clandestine, like spy work, or is it through relationships? How do you make the connections and help them get them out?

00:45:01.12
Ghazala
No, no, no. It's not connections. It's not. we had We have to fight a long legal fight.

00:45:10.88
Don
Okay, so it's a legal battle.

00:45:12.41
Ghazala
Legal battle. Because

00:45:17.20
Ghazala
Well, this is very strange, like maybe very recently, Maria Shabazz case is very much in the media nowadays.

00:45:28.23
Ghazala
At 13 year old, Christian girl has been given to the abductor by the highest court of Pakistan, which is called ah Federal Constitution Court.

00:45:36.97
Don
Yeah.

00:45:39.78
Ghazala
So ah there is a quite contradiction of the cons in the constitution also. So now very recently after our much effort, much struggle when we rescued these girls, we brought them to the public. They spoke about their miseries, what happens to them. Because before that, when we were not doing this, all the government officials, they were always saying,

00:46:09.95
Ghazala
No, these are all love stories. The girls themselves ran away from their houses. And this is ah there is no such case that the ah there is a forced conversion or forced marriage or of anything like that.

00:46:28.42
Don
They denied it.

00:46:28.71
Ghazala
So bad news.

00:46:29.14
Don
open

00:46:30.47
Ghazala
yeah But when we started working this and we started training to the girls, we were giving them love, we were giving them confidence. And these girls, I take all the way to the women's rights protests, climate protests, or the minority rights march. I make them publicly speak about their misreads, about their stories, what happened to them.

00:46:56.26
Ghazala
Now it has been acknowledged throughout the Pakistan that this is happening. So ah then whole of the Pakistan, very soon recently, all the provinces of Pakistan have made this law that or under age 18 is the age, legal age for the boys and girls to be married.

00:47:02.65
Don
Okay.

00:47:22.75
Ghazala
But this is all the provinces have, like three of the provinces have made this and the federal government has made this. One province still says 16 years of age for the girls.

00:47:36.29
Ghazala
But the highest court of the Pakistan, contrary to the contrary to the of established laws, has given this order that this 13-year-old girl is legally wed to the a Muslim.

00:47:53.25
Ghazala
And Muslims can marry to underage Christian girls. So you will be surprised to know after this Maria Shabazz case, three girls known cases within a week has happened and just two days back some Muslim men went to a Christian family when the parents were not at home the girl 13 year old girl was only at home they forcibly on gunpoint they made her to get um accept Islam as her religion.

00:48:30.43
Ghazala
And they told her that on 15th of April, they will come with the Muslim clerics and they will perform the marriage ceremony.

00:48:42.40
Ghazala
Like they said that the federal constitution court has given us this right, then we can do this.

00:48:43.59
Don
So we'll do it.

00:48:49.62
Don
we'll do it

00:48:49.79
Ghazala
So this is a horrible, horrible that we feel so insecure that anybody like um can come in our houses, take our daughters and perform the marriage. And now the courts will not help us again.

00:49:07.84
Ghazala
So we are arranging protest and... trying to fight legally also so this can be revert because otherwise the girls, minority girls are ah not safe in Pakistan and after this recent verdict it has become more dangerous for the girls.

00:49:17.06
Don
wow

00:49:31.59
Don
so tragic may god give you and your colleagues wisdom and grace to get this overturned yes

00:49:33.03
Ghazala
Very tragic.

00:49:37.06
Ghazala
Yes. Yes. Yes.

00:49:39.45
Don
Wow.

00:49:39.59
Ghazala
We need prayers.

00:49:41.64
Don
One of my um long-term interests is when people come to faith in Christ from Muslim, Hindu, Sikh, Buddhist backgrounds, they often have a hard time being discipled, becoming strong believers.

00:49:49.34
Ghazala
as we

00:49:58.18
Don
In your experience, because you're helping through churches and fellowships, what are the important things to help someone who's come to faith in Christ to go deep?

00:50:09.25
Don
I mean, you and your husband went to seminary for four years and got very good formation, but most people can't do that. What are the key one or two key things for you to help these people become strong in Christ?

00:50:17.73
Ghazala
we

00:50:22.56
Ghazala
Well, one thing I would love my audience need to know that the Christian faith is not at close age not exclusive and not narrow-minded.

00:50:33.39
Don
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:50:33.60
Ghazala
But we should need to keep in our mind that when people coming from other faiths, they have different rituals, they have different beliefs, they have different traditions,

00:50:51.53
Ghazala
There everything is different and to bring them to the faith which is a Christian faith we need like this missional work should have two steps I believe.

00:51:09.78
Don
OK. Mm-hmm.

00:51:11.36
Ghazala
In the first place we should be open we should have adopt such patterns where we can welcome those people and we can establish a fellowship with them.

00:51:31.62
Ghazala
But then on the other step, we should be very much careful when we are bringing them to a Christian faith.

00:51:42.56
Don
Right.

00:51:43.29
Ghazala
It's very clearly, very ah strongly, the theological things should be given to them.

00:51:56.03
Ghazala
And if we, in the beginning, we should respect their um traditions, we should respect their rituals, but gradually, gradually,

00:52:14.02
Ghazala
with love, with acceptance, with humbleness.

00:52:19.10
Don
Yes. Mm-hmm.

00:52:20.10
Ghazala
We should teach them not in the first place you start condemning, don't condemn or don't reject or don't disgrace or don't make fun of their things.

00:52:38.40
Ghazala
Because they have a strong faith on those things.

00:52:43.59
Don
yes

00:52:43.75
Ghazala
So, first you remove their misconceptions. When their misconceptions are removed, there ah their ah ideas, their beliefs are corrected now.

00:52:58.42
Don
Yes.

00:52:58.50
Ghazala
Then you help them to grow in new faith. And when i like me and my husband, ah the ministry is very difficult because like we are not working in um ah one community.

00:53:13.99
Don
yes

00:53:14.80
Ghazala
These all Sikh, Muslim, Hindu, and the other one, other ministry, which I'm doing, UNEX, which I'm not going to discuss here because it requires a lot of explanation.

00:53:28.45
Ghazala
But if we talk Muslim, Hindu, Sikh, these three communities have different rituals, different faith, different beliefs.

00:53:28.55
Don
Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Mm-hmm.

00:53:38.27
Ghazala
And then it is not only different to each other, then it is different to Christianity also. So all the time we have to be very much grounded in the word of God.

00:53:51.81
Ghazala
We need the strength of Holy Spirit, guidance of Holy Spirit, like moving from one community to other and from this community to the third community.

00:54:00.07
Don
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:54:03.65
Ghazala
And then all three bringing to faith, to Christian faith. and then help them to keep the strong Christian faith in the face of all this persecution, all this death threats, all this from societal discrimination.

00:54:22.37
Ghazala
It's a very difficult job and you ah you will be surprised to know that like hardly sleep for six hours because I have a human rights forum also I have faith ministry also. I have to work for the rights of the women rights also.

00:54:44.39
Ghazala
So um we have three shelters also.

00:54:49.43
Don
Mm-hmm.

00:54:49.73
Ghazala
Two of the shelters are for those people who face persecution. We give them refuge there. And one shelter is for the girls who are underage, forcefully converted or went underage marriages.

00:55:06.27
Ghazala
So I really through your Reflexio podcast, I challenge to the people that if me being a woman and in such a hostile society, if I can do all these jobs by the help and by the word of God,

00:55:31.59
Ghazala
Others can do also. And people living in USA, they have a great responsibility at the church in USA to bring other people to Christian faith, to share this great truth with the people who are in darkness.

00:55:50.11
Don
Amen. Amen.

00:55:53.76
Don
So all that you've been through these decades, all these initiatives you've done, ah you mentioned to me that you had many court cases against you trying to stop you.

00:56:06.15
Don
Is there some, can you just share with us a little bit about the really tough things and how you've survived, how you've gotten through them?

00:56:18.24
Ghazala
Yeah, very, very painful and difficult memories, very hard memories. oh I told you I'm a first woman in many ah ministries and many fields.

00:56:32.51
Don
85. Mm-hmm.

00:56:34.43
Ghazala
And I'm also the only woman, I think, in Pakistan, which has faced 85 court cases. you will not find no You will not find any woman in Pakistan facing so many police and court cases, fighting for the rights.

00:56:41.15
Don
eighty

00:56:53.03
Ghazala
But I'm thankful to God because my inspiration is the life of Jesus Christ in the world of God. So whenever a new case was put on me and my husband, I always told to Jesus. I always talked to him.

00:57:11.14
Ghazala
I will tell you the cases, the nature of the cases later on. I always talk to Jesus. I say, you were taken to all courts, kingly, worldly courts and the ah religious courts also.

00:57:26.51
Don
No

00:57:27.94
Ghazala
And everybody said, the digital religious leaders, worldly leaders, the king of the nation of the that state, that we find no sin in him.

00:57:42.24
Don
no fault

00:57:42.40
Ghazala
Every court said, And I always ask to Jesus, you were taken everywhere, to the police, to the court, to the everywhere. And nobody found any sin in you.

00:57:56.00
Ghazala
And you know that I have not done anything wrong. And I want a verdict that no one can find any ah blame on me.

00:58:09.73
Ghazala
I need the same that they cannot find any ah fault in me and I'm glad I give all glory to God I faced lot of lot of persecution in papers in inner ah in the press conference in the newspapers in the media like I was being portrayed as I am the most notorious woman of in Pakistan but in ever

00:58:41.83
Don
most evil woman

00:58:43.88
Ghazala
Yes. And in every single case, through police investigation, and it's not a normal investigation, from the highest forums, because I am an educated woman, and you asked me, where did I get all this inspiration?

00:58:57.29
Don
Yes.

00:59:01.69
Ghazala
I tell you on this point, there were so many false cases and I'm being a highly educated woman and my husband highly educated. i e can read the law, I can read the ah and ah reports, police reports, court reports, and I can write to the highest police forums on any forum.

00:59:26.47
Ghazala
So through highest level of investigations, in every case it was said, it was in my favor. It was always said that there is nothing has been found against Ghazala and her husband.

00:59:43.94
Ghazala
I give all glory to him. And you will be surprised there were three false blasphemy cases registered against us also. And in Pakistan, if we only a one case is registered against a family,

01:00:03.36
Ghazala
Their whole wealth is gone. Their house is gone. Their children cannot get education. But I always fixed my eyes. We always focused our eyes on Jesus Christ, on the word of God.

01:00:17.44
Ghazala
We always sat on the ground. We bowed down before Almighty God and asked him, he is the judge. He knows everything.

01:00:29.09
Ghazala
So he brought us out of every allegation. In every case, we were very gracefully and respect respectfully declared innocent.

01:00:41.71
Don
Wow.

01:00:41.79
Ghazala
And there yeah, God is great.

01:00:42.51
Don
Praise God.

01:00:45.89
Ghazala
If you find God in your life,

01:00:46.22
Don
Amen.

01:00:49.60
Ghazala
and he's the captain of your life and the word golf of God is your strength, you can never fail. And even some persecution comes, it grows your faith, it strengthens your faith.

01:01:02.72
Ghazala
So when I faced all, we faced all these cases, I found out that i am such an educated woman. I being faced so much wrong allegations,

01:01:17.35
Ghazala
But the women of Pakistan, they are not educated.

01:01:20.86
Don
Yes. Amen.

01:01:20.93
Ghazala
And Christian women are not educated. Who will fight for them? That was my real inspiration or conviction that I started working for the rights of Pakistani women, especially for the Christian women and the minority women. I work for the rights of all the women.

01:01:39.97
Ghazala
And ah through these court cases, I will tell you one interesting court case. In 2017, there were two cases registered against me and my husband.

01:01:52.41
Don
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

01:01:58.21
Ghazala
That we, my husband and me kidnapped a 16-year-old Muslim girl. And then later on, we kidnapped...

01:02:09.12
Ghazala
ah the mother of the girl also. So there were two FIRs, two false cases registered against us a apart from blasphemy.

01:02:23.68
Ghazala
These were the kidnapping cases. And kidnapping cases, you don't get bail. if they are

01:02:30.39
Don
Okay.

01:02:32.06
Ghazala
Bail is not granted in kidnapping cases.

01:02:33.51
Don
So they put you in prison when the charge is made? Yeah.

01:02:36.87
Ghazala
No, I tell you. So then in the middle of night, their work there came six police mobiles and one that bulletproof vehicle.

01:02:49.57
Ghazala
So um when they entered, there were 35 people, 35 people, all armed. And ah my husband was awake at that time. He took him and put in the police van and then he came and they,

01:03:07.17
Ghazala
I was sleeping and they woke me up. And my daughters, all daughters were there. And when they were like, the lives were off. It was in the middle of the night, 3 p.m.

01:03:18.67
Ghazala
3 a.m. in the morning.

01:03:20.07
Don
Yeah.

01:03:21.63
Ghazala
So they were awake and they're saying, maybe some ah fairies are there, some evil spirits are there because they were putting torch lights inside the rooms.

01:03:35.14
Ghazala
But finally they came to me, and they woke me up and they said, are you Ghazala Shafique? I said, yes. And they said, I saw the but the guns they had in their, Kalashnikovs they had in their hands. So I did not say a single word to them because I knew there are so many and I'm all alone.

01:03:53.35
Ghazala
So they took a phone, um my phone and my husband's phone and my daughter Sijal. She came and she said, you cannot take these telephones.

01:04:03.91
Ghazala
These are my telephones. They said, no, no, these are your parents' phones. She said, no, these are my phones. You cannot take them. So they put Kalashnikovs on her, ah on ah on her throat. And they said, we will kill you. You leave these phones. She said, kill me, but I will not let you to take these phones.

01:04:23.46
Don
wow your daughter was very brave

01:04:26.72
Ghazala
God-given... through all these times of trials, not only to us, to our children also. So they did not take the phone phones.

01:04:37.09
Ghazala
And when they took me in the police mobile, we had a, it's interesting, maybe the podcast is long, but I would love to increase the faith of people.

01:04:48.67
Don
Yes, please finish the story, yes.

01:04:48.64
Ghazala
I will love to share the story. Yeah. When they got me into the prison, my husband was already there and the, oh i asked them, my husband asked me because we had a dog at that time and we love dogs and we love animals.

01:05:07.46
Ghazala
So my husband said, was dog safe? was he it It's a female dog, her name is Collie. So it was Collie safe and inside the home? I said, I don't know, there were so many police men and how can I tell you that the Collie was inside or not?

01:05:24.90
Ghazala
So I requested, there was only one woman and other were all men. And I asked her, can I take ah your telephone call and I can call my children?

01:05:30.53
Don
It is

01:05:35.65
Ghazala
and check that if our dog is inside or outside, is he, it is okay.

01:05:37.89
Don
is okay

01:05:41.54
Ghazala
And she got so angry on me because Muslims don't allow dogs in their homes. And she said, if you keep dogs in your home, you will bring curse to yourself. And that's why this is happening to you.

01:05:56.13
Ghazala
And I took little pause. And then I said, I read in the Quran that there's a story of a dog in the Quran.

01:06:06.82
Ghazala
And as soon as ah I said, my husband told the whole story of a dog, that is a dog which is called blessed dog and it it lives in heaven.

01:06:20.67
Ghazala
So my husband told the whole story from the Quran. And i said, if the dog can be in the Quran, why dog cannot be in my house?

01:06:33.19
Ghazala
it So that's how a we started into conversation and they, one of them, they recognized me that, oh, I am a very famous religious scholar on the social media.

01:06:48.51
Ghazala
And they told others that also that she's a very famous ah religious scholar. And they gave me a great respect. They put me in the AC air conditioned room They put my husband in the lockup and they put me in the air-conditioned room.

01:07:07.04
Ghazala
and But I'm thankful to God Almighty. In the early morning, my daughter, Sijan, she went, during the night time, she went to different people. She went to our lawyer. So early morning, they brought a court verdict, which was already issued in my favor. And which that is also a special court verdict, verdict which gave me protections.

01:07:32.29
Ghazala
That gives that, ah that I will show you that and you show to the audience because this is only the two verdicts like that has been given in Pakistan. One is for my, in my favor and one was in some political person that no police can arrest arrest me without the permission of high court.

01:07:53.47
Ghazala
And I believe that high court is my God Almighty.

01:07:53.88
Don
Amen.

01:07:58.69
Ghazala
So when this verdict, this court ordered the my lawyer and my daughter and others, brought to the police and they got so confused.

01:08:09.31
Ghazala
They got so upset that how they have arrested us. This was the very first time the police was able to arrest us. Only one time.

01:08:20.07
Ghazala
In other cases, they were trying hard to arrest me, but they could never arrest me. But this time they arrested us.

01:08:25.39
Don
of

01:08:26.63
Ghazala
was When they saw this, they started begging forgiveness from us. They started telling us, please don't tell for a high court that we have arrested you.

01:08:38.91
Ghazala
And then they started serving us. And every single point, I was asking them, let us pray first. Let us pray first. I was praying at every point. So in the evening, they set us free.

01:08:51.39
Ghazala
And they were seeking but forgiveness from us. And I give all glory to God. And after that, I have four children, three daughters and one son.

01:08:57.32
Don
too

01:09:00.99
Ghazala
And my younger daughter was at that time, 17 years old. I asked all my four children that should we leave Pakistan? This is too much.

01:09:13.82
Ghazala
Like 35 men ah police and coming all that.

01:09:15.65
Don
and still much

01:09:18.93
Ghazala
That's a horrible scene my children saw. And I asked them, should we leave Pakistan? They said, mother, you don't have to leave Pakistan. They did not agree. Then i went to my younger daughter, Zimra.

01:09:32.42
Ghazala
I said, Zimra, okay, others are not listening and you are the long youngest. Okay, you and me can go and settle in some other country. And my younger daughter, Zimra said at that time, mother,

01:09:45.82
Ghazala
you won't leave Pakistan. Because if you leave Pakistan, people will think that you were a criminal woman. You were a bad woman. You have to live in Pakistan. You prove to the authorities. You prove to the people that you are a good woman.

01:10:01.38
Ghazala
You are not a guilty woman.

01:10:01.48
Don
Yes. Amen. Amen.

01:10:05.31
Ghazala
So I am thankful to God that my children have very strong faith and they have a very strong... determination and they always stood beside us and thank god they are a partners in ministry also with us and we give all glory to god all glory it's only him that we are surviving and we are doing all these jobs without him we cannot do and this is the word of god which gives us power which gives us authority gives us strength thank you Jesus

01:10:26.02
Don
man

01:10:32.50
Don
Amen.

01:10:38.58
Don
Amen.

01:10:43.11
Don
Amen. What a story. Um, as I'm just thinking of people, I occasionally look to see who's listening and watching and they are all over the world, but a lot of them are in the U S and England and Canada. Um,

01:11:01.63
Don
Any little message to Christians around the world who are not facing persecution, who do not face such threats or do not get court case against them because they're Christians?

01:11:16.35
Don
What do you say to us? What do you say to everyone else who lives as a safe life, an easy life? um yes how What's the message from this woman of God in Pakistan to us all?

01:11:31.93
Ghazala
Well, I say one thing that we are called as a soldiers of Jesus Christ. Soldiers, we are called an army of God. And i feel so strange, the Christian around the world, like people in US, s they have all the facilities.

01:11:54.31
Ghazala
Like, beside persecution, you will be surprised to know that we don't get electricity, we don't get water, we don't get gas. Like, all the time, we are living in load shedding, we are living without water, we have to buy water, we have to buy gas.
01:12:18.31
Ghazala
Things are so difficult here, but still we are keeping our faith.

01:12:20.99
Don
Yeah. Amen.

01:12:23.04
Ghazala
We are sharing our faith to Jesus. And first three centuries, they were very difficult for the faith and the early forefathers, early fathers of faith, early Christian mothers and young people, they sacrificed their lives.

01:12:46.59
Ghazala
they sacrifice their comfort zones. Like you look at the life of Abraham. At age of 75, he was called to be a missionary for God.

01:12:59.78
Ghazala
And he did not ask a question to Jesus Christ or the God Almighty. His wife and both of them, they left their comfort zone and God appointed him as a first missionary to bless all the nations of the world.

01:13:15.03
Don
Yes.

01:13:15.23
Ghazala
And A 75-year-old man who does not know where he is going. Now we have Google, we have maps, we have all the access. exist If we are traveling somewhere, we can Google all the things.

01:13:31.52
Ghazala
We are living in a much better situation.

01:13:36.67
Ghazala
So we God has done whatever he had to do. He sent prophets, he sent Holy Spirit, He sent his only son. Now the responsibility on our shoulders.

01:13:52.58
Ghazala
So please the Christian living around the world, if you don't face persecution, that your faith is not being tested. This life in this world is temporary, maybe 70 years, for but some years, years, years.

01:14:12.51
Ghazala
But there is one life, life after death, that is everlasting life. We need to be ready for that. And for that, we have to preach the love of God, the truth of God, the truth of gospel to the people.

01:14:32.80
Ghazala
So please...

01:14:33.23
Don
Mm-hmm.

01:14:35.08
Ghazala
Don't be lazy. Don't ignore the responsibility which is which is given by the God, given by the angels, given by the Holy Spirit, given by the King, our King, our Savior, Jesus Christ.

01:14:49.19
Ghazala
So please, I ask the reason which is ah the neglected. This is a challenge that the two mothers are very famous in the world.

01:15:00.77
Ghazala
one Jewish mother, which teaches his children, her children, the first books, so first five books of the Torah at the age of 12.

01:15:14.59
Ghazala
And she is very famous. She does not have the full revelation of Jesus Christ. She does not have the full revelation of the New Testament. But still, she knows the Jehovah God, and she very faithfully teaches her children the word of God. And the second mother is a Muslim mother.

01:15:39.52
Ghazala
They are very strong in teaching their Islamic faith to their children. where They don't have any true revelation, any truth.

01:15:53.54
Ghazala
But still they are so committed with their faith.

01:16:00.35
Ghazala
The reality should be like this, that the Christian mother is famous in the world.

01:16:05.25
Don
Amen. Amen.

01:16:05.57
Ghazala
We mothers should be famous for our faith. We mothers should be famous for our work, for our love of God, but unfortunate. I challenge all the families who are watching this podcast, all the mothers and fathers, please, right from the beginning, start teaching your children this book.

01:16:30.24
Ghazala
This is truth. So once this book is in your house, in your bones, in your atmosphere, you are more than conqueror.

01:16:41.03
Ghazala
In trials, in difficulties, you will be laughing like me. You will be praising to God like me.

01:16:49.35
Ghazala
Persecution cannot harm you. It gives you strong faith.

01:16:55.04
Don
Thank you. That's a very powerful challenge to us. Thank you for this time. i almost think maybe we'll have to have another one.

01:17:06.02
Don
We can hear some more things another time. But may God bless you and continue to protect you and use you.

01:17:10.42
Ghazala
Thank you.

01:17:12.62
Don
And may every one of the ministries that you're involved in and be see much blessings from God.

01:17:20.03
Ghazala
Thank you. Thank you. God bless you.

01:17:21.92
Don
God bless you, sister. Bye-bye.

01:17:24.39
Ghazala
Love you.

01:17:26.00

Wow, what a conversation that was with Gazala, a remarkable woman of God. I'm still recovering from that last story of the way she was. They were arrested and then released within 24 hours because of the stature she has in the country and God's protection of her.

And then her final challenge to live for Christ wholeheartedly, even if it means being killed or put in prison.

May God give us grace to be faithful as she has been for these decades. Thank you for tuning in to another episode of the Reflexio Podcast. I encourage you to let people know and share it. God bless you.

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