An Asian Searching for Truth in Drugs and Mysticism

Don

So it's good to see you, Paul. How are you?

Paul

I'm okay, Don. Thanks. Doing well.

Don

I've been looking forward to this conversation for quite a while. Can you just sort of tell a bit of your story, how you came to faith?

Paul

Yeah, so, you know, I grew up in a Muslim nation, Don. So I grew up with a lot of Muslim friends around me. And I was fortunate enough to go to a college in the United Kingdom, in Great Britain. And I think my spiritual journey began there.

So whilst I was in college, I started using recreational drugs, cannabis, marijuana. And then I met some, yeah, made some friends and made some good friends. And one of them was a guy from India. So he invited me to go to India during my, I think first year of college or second year of college. So I went to India.

So, you know, I arrived in Bombay and like at 2 a.m. in the morning and was really tired. And I stepped up of the arrival home and there was just this flood of bodies, like, you know, on the floor. Everyone, like, there were so many people sleeping, like in the arrival home, and these were not passengers. So I was like, wow. You know, so that was my first, like, you know, welcome to India. And- People sleeping everywhere. Yeah, and sleeping everywhere and like people asking for money.

And of course, like, you know, my friend wasn't there. And he was in Madras. And so I got on the bus the next day. I found a place to stay. I got on the bus the next day and made my way to Madras. Of course, like on the bus, I was completely, you know, stoned and I was just out there. So I was sleeping on the bus. I can't even remember how I got tickets to the bus. But I, so I go on the bus and made my way down to Madras.

I woke up like halfway, like, you know, on the journey. And I was seeing all these slums. You know, I saw all these slums around me and it's just like miles and miles of slums. And so, you know, I got into Madras, met my friend, hung out for a few days.

Well, when I say hung out, I mean, I didn't even go out of the hotel room. You know, I just like, I was just, yeah. I was just like high all the time with my, this friend of mine. And we went out once to see his friends. And that was about it. Really good time. Yeah, so, you know, I saw it was like during the time when Rajiv Gandhi got assassinated. So we were in Madras. So there was a lot of security, you know, and like, yeah. So it was a very tense time.

And I got tickets to Delhi after that. I spent like a couple of days in Madras. Got tickets to New Delhi on the train. Because my friend told me to go up to Uttar Pradesh, you know, to this place called Manali. You know, that's where like most people go, or people who want to like, you know, have a good time. Yes, and do drugs and all that. Yeah. So I go on the train to Delhi and took me, I think, two nights to get there on this, on the train. Again, that was an experience, yeah.

Don:

So I've ridden the train in India. I can remember and picture it. Yeah, it was 40 years ago for me.

Paul:

Yeah, so this was like, you know, in 1990, I think so, yeah, it's a long time ago, that one month in India, I think that was the beginning of my spiritual awakening. So I met a lot of people there, and I saw a lot of things there, suffering, how people lived. And during my time in Vashish, I'm, you know, I come around with like, people, well, they call them the Sadhus, the Gurus. And so I was like thinking, you know, to myself, how can these people live like that? And, you know, I mean, so they smoke marijuana all day, meditate, and, you know, and that's about it. And people come to them to ask for advice, to ask for blessings. So I was curious, you know, what was going on in their minds and hearts, yeah. So that was my like, you know, spiritual awakening.

And so, yeah, I lost a lot of weight in India. Oh, boy, yeah, that was, that was a really, really, like, bad experience. Yeah, so, you know, so I, I left India with this, like, yearning to know, like, you know, yeah, to, to know more about, like, you know, what was the purpose? Like, you know, why, why am I here for, you know, what's the purpose of my life?

Don:

Just a question. At this point, you grew up among Muslims, the Muslim family, but you didn't necessarily think of yourself as a Muslim.

Paul:

So I wasn't a Muslim, even though I grew up in a Muslim nation, so I was a minority. So, yeah, so my mom, like, yeah, she was sort of a practicing Catholic, but my dad was more agnostic. Yeah, so, but my mom had her own spiritual journey as well. Yeah, so she drifted in and out of, like, you know, Catholicism, and my dad, he was really, never really into religion.

Don:

Okay. Yeah, keep going with your journey.

Paul:

Yeah. So, you know, so I left India, went back home to Brunei, thinking a lot about India, and also that started, like, this, not only spiritual awakening, this, this, like, yearning to travel. So after that, you know, I just, like, you know, because I was doing anthropology in college, so, like, you know, looking at, like, you know, meeting different people, you know, experiencing different cultures.

I really liked that. So it was also, like, you know, so I had travel far after that, after India. So when I went back to the UK, you know, I was planning my next trip. You know, where should I go next? Yeah. You got the travel bug. Yeah. And also, you know, not only travel, but like, you know, to seek, like, some spiritual experience. So, because, like, going to India and seeing the mountains there, because, like, we were up in the mountains, you know, that, yeah, it was really beautiful. So, so I really loved that. So I wanted to go to a place where, you know, there were mountains and, like, you know, where, where it was unique. So I started thinking to myself, you know, so where in the world, like, you know, can I go, which is unique and, like, you know, it's full of mountains.

So I chose, like, South America. Yeah. So I, and also, of course, like, you know, there's lots of dope. Yeah. So, so I chose South America. So I started, like, reading up on, like, South America. And, you know, and, like, Ecuador was the cheapest place and the easiest place to go because it was so small. So after I graduated, I, you know, I went to South America. So, you know, I started, well, I, I funded my trip to South America. By, you know, by, by selling drugs on campus. So that's how I funded my trip.

So, you know, I, after I graduated, which, like, you know, I'm still quite amazed how I even graduated, yeah. Yeah.

So, I left for South America in January. I landed at, I called, landed in Quito. I couldn't even speak a word of Spanish, but that was okay, you know. So, you know, I figured I'll manage somehow. I didn't speak Hindi as well in India. And I, you know, I managed. They do speak English there. Well, some, some of them, yeah. Yeah. So, but I managed.

So, anyway, I landed in Quito and went around for like a couple of days. And, you know, met some people, met some Argentinians and, you know, hung around with them for a while, traveled, you know. So, these Argentinians, they hired a fan. So, we went around Ecuador, you know, for I think one to two weeks. Yeah. Of course, I had brought some, some, some like dope from, from England. So, like, you know, so we enjoyed that, like, like during our two week trip. And, and they introduced me to some of the pushers like in Ecuador.

So, you know, so after that, we were just like, you know, bombing around, like in the van, traveling, going to places like so. They brought me like, and they introduced me to all like these places they go to. And so they like, they go to Ecuador every year. So they brought me like to the Amazon, you know, to the like Andes and then down to the Pacific Coast, like on the beaches. Yeah. So, yeah. So I traveled with them. And then they went back to Argentina and then I met some other people. So we hung around together. And then it was time to go to Colombia because like, you know, I had only three months like on my visa in Ecuador.

So I went to Colombia, basically did the same thing. And but in Colombia, it was like more of a, it was a very intense place. Yeah. Yeah, I met a lot of like people in Colombia. I mean. People with all kinds of life experience, put it that way. Yeah. And, and so in Colombia, I was I was there for nine months and I sat in Ecuador for six months. And I hung out on the Caribbean coast most of the time in Colombia. In this place called Santa Marta. And, you know, yeah, we did a lot of like drugs each day. I mean, even more than Ecuador. That was really intense. But at the same time, you know, I was like. I was on this future journey and like I. I was I didn't. You know. Yeah, I did an experience. I was. Yeah, you know, I. I was way off and I couldn't experience like, you know, what I was looking for, you know, even though I was.

Don:

Yeah. I'm curious, Paul, I've heard people who do psychedelic drugs say that they do it for the spiritual experience. Were you trying to get it through the drugs, too? Or was it just?

Paul:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and I couldn't I couldn't I I was yeah, I was no way near. You know. And the more I did, the more like, you know, the worst I got. So I finally decided to like, you know, to go up to the mountains to this this Indian tribe like in the Sierra Nevada. They call the Kogi.

Yeah, so untouched by civilization and also so they worship like, you know, Mother Earth, they call it. They call it Mother Earth. So I was preparing to go out there with a bunch of Colombians. Well, they invited me there to join them. And just before I went up to the mountain, my legs started swelling, my left leg. Back then, I didn't know, you know, what was happening. But now I know like I had deep vein thrombosis.

Don:

And what is that?

Paul:

Well, it's basically a clot in your veins, in your leg, because your blood starts to clot and I didn't know I had a genetic condition. I had a genetic disorder, blood disorder, so my blood clots really easily and I never experienced the fear I got to Colombia.

So prior, before going to Colombia, before going on the mountains, my legs started swelling. And so if the clot breaks off and makes its way to your heart or your brain, and then that's it. And so this is like common in air travel, so when passengers travel, so it's called deep vein thrombosis, DVT. So I didn't know like, you know, that I had that disorder, so my legs were swelling, my left leg was swelling to the point I couldn't put pressure on it. And so I was getting to go to this like mountain, to this village in the mountain. I made it halfway on horseback. So we use horses to get up there. Some of them walk, but I had to use a horse because I couldn't walk, but even like going on the horse was just like, you know, it was excruciating pain. And so we were halfway up the mountain, so we stayed like in the camp. And at that camp, you know, I was in so much pain, and you know, everyone figured it was just bad, like, you know, I come back down to the village.

So I didn't make it to the Indian village, I came back down, and I tell you Don, it was like when I wait, when I finally got to the village, I just, you know, I was just like in so much pain, I was lying on the ground and nearly passed out. So for the next month, I was in a hammock. So during my time in Colombia, like, I think half the time we were sleeping in hammocks, you know, either outside or in someone's house, like, you know, outdoors. So I was sleeping in this hammock, like, in this lady's house, outdoors, in a mud-thatched house for about a month. Yeah, she fed me, you know, yeah, she fed me, and it was very basic there. And so, like, I started thinking, you know, what am I doing here, you know, like, trying to find, like, you know, God, trying to find, like, you know, what am I here for, purpose, my purpose in life, and it's just like things are getting from bad to worse,

Paul: [18:30]

Yeah. So I got home, and then, well, I did, yeah. So I was preparing to go home. So finally, I made it back to Brunei.

I got a job for a year, and then, like, you know, started to hang out with my Muslim friends again, started to get involved in drugs again, and then, yeah, I knew, like, you know, this is no good, you know, I should, you know, I should bring this to a stop. So I realized, like, there was no, yeah, I couldn't really stop on my own, and I knew, like, I needed, like, you know, some higher power to help me.

So one day, in desperation, you know, I prayed, if there's a God, you know, if you are there God, you better tell me what to do, you know, why I'm here for, and because if you don't, I probably end up dead, and a week later, yeah, God replied.

So what happened was, I was in my room, and I saw, this was, like, during the evening, so I saw this bright light outside my window, just hovering, and I thought I was, like, you know, going crazy, so I, I, I... I stepped forward to the window and just looked at the light and suddenly the presence, there's this presence in the room and I knew that was gone. I felt so filthy and I didn't know what holy was before that, but that particular night, that incident made me aware of like, you know, yeah, not only made me aware, I experienced what holiness meant and I experienced what sin meant, you know, what, this presence you felt, it's so holy that you felt, yeah, I felt so dirty, yeah, I felt filthy and that presence was so powerful, I was sitting on my chair and that presence was so powerful and I had a flashback of my life, so like, you know, I saw like my life just like, you know, just fast forward and then I saw like the globe and then I heard a voice and you know, an audible voice saying, you know, you be my witness to all nations and to the ends of the earth and I'll open your spiritual eyes.

Of course, I didn't know what that meant, but that presence was so strong, so overwhelming, so holy, I was sitting on my chair and I just fell to the ground and like, I couldn't even say anything because like, you know, because I was just overwhelmed and in my heart I cried out, forgive me, you know, forgive me and I was delivered, you know, I started screaming and you know, and yeah, I started screaming, wailing, sobbing and I passed out, I passed out, I think, for maybe one and a half hours because no one was in the house, no one knew what happened, so after that I woke up and I knew like, wow, that was the God of the Bible, I just knew it, you know, I had read the Bible, but I didn't know like, you know, who Jesus was and all that, but after that I knew like, that is the God of the Bible.

You know, your experience, I've just been reading Acts this week and right near when Paul's speaking to Agrippa, I think it is, he tells his story again and he says he saw this blinding light, who are you and then immediately Jesus said, I'm Jesus and I'm taking you from darkness to light and I'm sending you to the nations.

Don:

That's almost exactly what he did to you too, it's incredible.

Paul:

Yeah, but yeah, I'm not Paul, you know, anyway.

Don:

No, I know, but you were called, you were brought out of darkness, just like Paul was.

Paul:

Yeah, so like, you know, I woke from that experience with like, you know, feeling really light, like there was this huge burden carried off me. Yeah, so that was like, my search for God ended, you know, of all places like, yeah, in my room, I didn't have to travel anywhere or like, you know, get high or, you know, do all the things I did.

Yeah, yeah, so that was my conversion experience, because there was the deliverance then, so like, I broke free from drugs overnight, you know, I had no, I had no craving, but I didn't know that, but so after that, you know, I started, I tried to get high, but I couldn't, you know, I couldn't and I knew like, you know, God did something in my life, like, it just like completely freed me from the effects of the physical effects of drugs, yeah.

Don:

So with this kind of an experience, you didn't really know any Christians, so how did that, the short version of sort of how did you get them there into a call and discipled and, yeah, how did that go into a life of ministry?

Paul:

Yeah, so my mom, like prior to my conversion, So she finally became a Christian cause like, you know, she, she was undergoing. Yeah, you know, she, she was going through a lot of, uh, uh, hard stuff as well with in life and she, you know, she's searching different places with different people, but you know, didn't really find the answer she was looking for. So she became a believer. And so I knew that this conversion had to do with people praying for me as well.

And, and, you know, and they saw me like, you know, when I was back home in Bruna, uh, well, in, uh, my nation, they said it several times anyway. And then anyway, so, so when I was back home, the, uh, the, the, they saw me and they knew like, you know, I was in the mess, you know, my life was in a mess. So, so there were people praying for me, but even after what happened that night, no one really knew what was going on inside me. And I, I didn't know like how to like, you know, explain to people, but they knew like, you know, there was definitely this like change in me, you know, so I saw I joined this like a small fellowship and started to grow, but you know, I was still struggling inside, um, yeah, of course I had so much stuff, uh, you know, um, that, that, that wasn't dealt with.

Yeah. Uh, yeah, I was delivered from drugs. You know, I knew like, you know, what, what I'm supposed to do now, but there was still a lot in me that bondages and all that, um, that, that, you know, that, um, that, uh, no, that was bothering me, uh, spiritually. Yeah. I had a very intense time, uh, after my conversion, uh, spiritual battles.

Don:

Was there anyone to walk with you through them or were you just journeying alone?

Paul:

Yeah. My mom tried to journey with me. Yeah, but no one really understood. I didn't really tell anyone because like, you know, I wasn't sure that they could, they were able to understand. So I was like, basically on my own, my mom like helped me.

[27:44]

But even, yeah, my image, even like, you know, uh, it was limited, but you know, but it, it did, it helped me in some ways.

Don:

So, um, we can't go through all the journey, but can you tell a little bit how you got called into ministry and how you ended up sort of doing what you've been doing for the last couple of decades?

Paul:

Yeah. So, um, so after I joined this fellowship, the pastor, no, he saw this change in me and he heard about my story, how, you know, how I got, uh, you know, how I heard God's voice and he hooked, he hooked me up with YWAM.

Don:

Youth with a Mission. Okay.

Paul:

Yeah. So after that, I joined you Youth with a Mission and we went on our, uh, so like with you, with the DTS, you go on the outreach after your, uh, class training. Yeah. Three months and three months out. Yeah.

So during our mission, the mission part of the course, um, we came here to this place, uh, where I'm serving now. Okay. So, so that was how like, you know, I first, I was first exposed to, uh, to this place and to the people here. Okay.

After, after DTS, I went back home and you know, and so there was series of like incidents, divine incidents that made, well, that caused me to end up here. Um, so I'll give you, give you an example.

So after YWAM, I went to Bible school and there was this church next to, next to my Bible school. So the only time I step into this church was this one Sunday. And before I stepped into that church, they gave me a prayer letter for the Unreached People Group (UPG) group here in this place I'm serving. So I'm thinking to myself, well, is this God talking or what? And by, you know, there were a series of incidents after that as well that, you know, that made me. Yeah. Yeah, God was guiding you. Yeah. Yeah.

Don:

So you referred to being delivered in your actual conversion. I know in a previous conversation, you talked a bit more about what that meant. Also, just a few years ago, you took a course on deliverance ministry. How did that course and reflecting back on your experience, it was that it helped you see more clearly where you've come from and did you get some more freedom? I'm just interested in how you view that part, like the power of the demonic in your life and then the lives of the people around you. Just any reflections on that?

Paul:

Yeah, so, like after I took that course, you know, I started to reflect more on my experience, on what happened during my conversion. So after my conversion, you know, I couldn't listen to music, read the newspaper or watch TV. Because every time I did that, there would be all these cryptic messages in my mind. So my mind was like, you know, it was like, oh, this is, you know, I'm watching the news and then suddenly, like, you know, there's all kinds of messages, like from the news, like connected to other things in the news. So like one way, like everything was interrelated. So my mind was like working full time, even listening to music, you know, so there were cryptic messages, like in the lyrics, you know, reading the newspaper.

Don [32:06]

And with this, just things you were thinking or were voices telling you this stuff?

Paul:

Things I was thinking and voices as well. So my mind was just like, you know, full of voices and thoughts and all that, you know, and I had never experienced anything like that, even when I was doing drugs. And now I'm not even doing drugs anymore. And I was hearing voices, like, you know, getting all these thoughts. And yeah, it was like really driving me crazy.

So I knew I had to stop listening to music. I had to stop watching the news, reading the paper and just focus on the Bible. But it took me some time to get there, to figure out what was going on. And at the same time, you know, my emotions and my mental state was so unstable, my emotions as well because of that.

I couldn't sleep at night. So after I was delivered, I knew like, you know, there was this thing called evil. You know, the night after I was delivered, you know, I went outside and I could sense like, you know, evil just staring at me. I could sense like the devil is just staring at me really mad.

And so I had lost here. Yeah, I knew like, you know, that the morning was real after my deliverance. And so every night after my deliverance, I think for a couple of weeks or even a month, I was, you know, I couldn't go to sleep. Because I was I was so fearful because every time I tried to sleep, the demons would come and they would like physically assault me. So I was afraid of closing my eyes here. And the only the only thing that helped me was like putting worship music on. So that helped me. So and yeah, I mean, so that helped me, like, you know, pull through.

So like, you know, when morning came, I was, you know, I was so relieved. Like, I mean, even during the daytime, sometimes like I would like, you know, when I sort of wanted to take a nap because I was so tired, then I was then I would get physically assaulted as well. Yeah.

Don:

And this continued until you went to YWAM?

Paul:

No, I mean, this I can't remember now, but it sort of gradually ceased because I was in like a fellowship as well in the church and I was going to like Bible studies. So the intensity decreased over time, but yeah, during my like maybe first few weeks or month of conversion, it was really intense.

And I didn't know what was going on, but I knew like this was demonic. You know, it was the devil and I didn't know what to do. Yeah, I didn't know what to do. And I like, you know, like I was saying, you know, who should I tell this to? Like, do people really understand, you know, what's going on with me?

And so like, you know, so when I took this course on deliverance, it started to make sense now, you know, when I looked at, you know, I read through like the passages, heard about like the stories and reflected on my own experience, on why this was happening in my life. And, you know, like the footholds in my life that weren't dealt with after I was converted. And so it started to make sense. And using that, you know, now I can see where the believers we are trying to disciple, you know.

[36:33]

Don:

So what was happening in their minds, in their hearts when they come to faith? What kind of like oppression are they experiencing?

Paul:

Well, if it's anything like mine, boy, I'm not surprised, like, you know, they fall back into Islam. You know. Now you've got some tools to help such people to get out them underneath that oppression. Yeah. So, you know, I was fortunate enough to have like a fellowship that I could go to on a regular basis, like almost every week, you know, a couple of times a week.

But the believers, like, you know, Muslim, like background believers, they're in situations where that's not possible. Yeah. So, you know, I was thinking, like, I mean, just when I was doing this course, you know, I couldn't watch the news, I couldn't listen to music or read the papers because my mind would just go crazy. So I'm wondering, in their situation, after they come to faith, how they must feel like when they listen to the prayers five times a day? You know, what goes on in their mind, in their bodies, in their emotions?

Yeah. It's not just over. It's got stuff going on. Yeah. You know, like this. Yeah. So that's helped me understand a little bit more about the challenges they face.

Don:

Have you had any opportunity in the years since you took the course to actually help a brother or a couple sort of get victory over these things in their lives and get some push forward in their walk with God?

PauL:

So, yeah, so like. So what happened on was, you know, prior to me taking the course, what we saw, what I saw happening in the ministry was a lot of Muslims, well, not a lot, but Muslims would come to faith and they would fall back. You know, eventually revert back to Islam. And so this was the norm.

And I, you know, I attributed it to social pressure, family pressure, you know, a lot of, like, the livelihood. I knew, like, something spiritual was involved, but I didn't really know what. So, so what I saw was like, you know, what most people see.

So this was happening with my national partners as well. So they saw people come to faith and revert back to Islam and they revised their discipling materials because they thought they needed better discipling materials. But results were the same. There wasn't much change.

So after I took this course, what I did was I tried telling friends, colleagues, and nationals who were working with believers. You know, maybe there are some things we haven't addressed. In our discipling. And maybe it's good to look at some of these issues that we have not really thought about. Because when this course came out, the first thing I said was, yeah, this is it. I think this is what we're missing. Because I've been wrestling with that for years. I was thinking prior before this course came out, I had been thinking, trying to find the answer, what is making all these Muslims, many of these Muslims, go back to Islam? You know, we have tried so many things, you know, but they're still going back to Islam. So I shared with my friends and colleagues about what I learned. And yeah, I mean, some of the things, like in the course were pretty radical.

[41:58]

Don:

Yeah, especially renouncing Islam the way it's like, you know, it's...

Paul:

And so when they went through like that list of renunciation, yeah, it was pretty, you know, in your face kind of thing. Right. And I think a lot of them weren't prepared to bring that to their believers because they were afraid they would get offended. Right. And I introduced it to like colleagues as well from our own. They had questions as well. Yeah. Not all of them. And I think like some of them knew like, you know, they needed to do something more, but they didn't know just what, you know, they couldn't quite put your finger on it. They knew believers weren't growing in faith. They knew something was, you know, was stopping them from growing.

And I introduced it to like the leaders of our this nationals I'm working with. I think they thought it was, I don't know whether they read it, but the ones that did, I think thought the same way, it was pretty extreme. So, you know, we haven't really had a chance to use it. So what I did was I showed this prayer of renunciation to a good Muslim background friend. I mean, she was, you know, she suffered intense persecution and her whole family left and all that. So she's got like no one around her now. So I showed it to her and I asked her like, what do you think of this? And she said, yeah, I think it's OK, you know, because, you know, when I came to faith, no, we did the same thing, but maybe not in so much detail. Yeah, but I don't see like, you know, I don't see anything wrong with it. You know, I think it's vital that like when Muslims come to faith, they renounce Islam and...

Don:

Did she go through the prayers too at that point or not?

Paul:

She read through it and there were things in that prayer that she had never prayed through before. So I think she prayed through those prayers, the ones that she never prayed through before. Yeah. And she came back and said, yeah, I mean, I don't see why people should be worried about praying through these prayers or leading someone to pray through these prayers.

Yeah. So yeah, so that's as far as I have got to using it. But with Muslims, the thing is you can also use this with non-Muslims. And I've used this with my national partners.

So we work with a lot of nationals here. And many of them are from churches which are traditional and probably syncretic as well. Syncretistic, yeah. And so they've never really experienced freedom in Christ. OK. So I went through the materials with them. And then, you know, and for those that were wanting to be free, let them through prayers. And yeah, I saw God's power in them. For those who were really keen on freedom, yeah, it transformed them.

Don:

That's great. I'm watching the clock a bit here. We had a number of other topics to go with. But which one would you like to talk about if we've, say, you've got 10 or 15 more minutes? You talked about the increasing efforts to have local ministry teams having people from many different cultures and backgrounds.

[47:05]

And some of the challenges that that brings, along with teams, I don't know if you want to talk about that a bit, what your observations are. Is it better to have teams of separate cultural background working in coordination rather than everyone trying to work in the same team? What's it looking like on the ground for you guys there?

Paul:

Yeah, it has its challenges. So in my organization, it's in our region, this part of the world, it's predominantly Western. So I've been here. Workers are predominantly Western.

Don:

So what do you mean? And so I've been here for 25 years now when I first joined. It was that way. And it hasn't changed much. And so there are a few workers from other cultures, majority cultures, but not too much. And I think one of the reasons is, and I don't know whether this addresses the question, but one of the reasons is I find, and I do have some workers from the majority world here now in my area working directly with me. When I tell them, you have to raise your own funds. On top of that, you have to learn English. If you don't already know English, you have to learn it because most of our teammates are Westerners, and key meetings are conducted in English.

And on top of that, you have to learn the local language. It's not easy. It's not easy, yeah. And then after that, some of these workers come from countries whose passports are not welcome here. So they have visa challenges to get into the country. And if, after all that, they finally get here, they have to get used to team culture, which is predominantly Western.

And I remember my wife, you know, she, yeah. She, she's used to like Singapore English or Singlish so when she first joined our team our expa team like you know everyone was speaking in like in American English and she had a really tough time understanding I mean she she'd rather go into the team meetings you know because she couldn't yeah she couldn't really understand what they were saying and like if she spoke there they would probably not understand what she was saying as well yeah um so she knew English yeah.

Yeah um so and another thing was uh is um oh yeah this is one more thing but yeah I can't remember anyway yeah so it um you would say be a bit cautious about this push to make all of our teams multicultural is it it's not very it's not necessarily the best strategy well um I don't think I don't I don't think we can push it the way we want to but I think uh we have to be wise in how we pursue it and oh yeah I wanted to share this story.

Yeah so like you know uh when yeah during like my team leader like you know 20 years ago, he's an American so you know he had two cars so he had a four-wheel drive and another like MPV so he was working with a national partner who was also the director of this language school he was working in so he you know he came to a meeting one day and said it's not right that you know it's not right that Mr.

[51:58]

X is riding on his bike when I have two cars so I'm going to give him like you know my four-wheel drive so you know he gave him his four-wheel drive and the director told him look I can't drive that four-wheel drive you know I'm not you know I'm not used to driving a four-wheel drive and he cannot sell it you know. So we were thinking like he's going to be really excited and like you know be really thankful and he turns around and says no it's not for me. Can I sell it and get another car you know and so sometimes like you know uh yeah our good intentions yeah uh yeah we we yeah you know we might get a different response yeah.

Don:

I could tell stories like that too indeed

[52:54]

Don:

Yeah. Maybe another question. For the last, I don't know, 15 or 20 years in global ministry mission circles, there's been a lot of emphasis and excitement about church planning movements or disciple making movements. And I actually made a trip to Indonesia about 10 years ago, just to meet some movement leaders and get a picture of what's going on in that country. And you've expressed to me that you've been around this too for quite a while, and you're having some concerns about the stress on movements and rapid multiplication. I don't know if you want to tell some of that or just share a couple of stories around how, why you're starting to wonder if this is necessarily always the best approach.

Paul:

Yeah. I guess you know Dave Watson, right, Don?

Don:

Yeah. I mean, everyone knows of him. I've only met him once for like 10 minutes, but I know of him.

Paul:

Yeah. So I met him personally, like 18 years ago, and then he was invited to a retreat for nationals, church planters during the same time. So there must have been over a hundred church planters at this retreat. And also he was sharing about the movement that was happening in India and introducing the workers to like, you know, the DBS, the Discovery Bible study, the person of peace. Yeah. All these concepts. Yeah. So that was like 18 years ago. Yeah. And yeah, no one was interested. Whatever. Yeah, that was the response, you know, and no one was really interested. And fast forward, present day, almost every single one of them that is still on the field from that retreat is now pursuing CPMs.

Don:

Okay. Wow.

Paul:

In one, way, one method or another. Yeah.

Don:

So what kind of fruit are they having?

Paul:

Yeah. That's the challenge. So with this particular model of like CPM that they're using. So they've been using this model. I remember when the, when the leadership pushed out this model, CPM model, 15 years ago, there was like a lot of resources were invested, like him getting people trained in bringing trainers in to train this people in evaluation and all that, a lot of resources.

And, um, you know, there were moments of excitement. So people were thinking, right, this is like, you know, this is it, you know, yeah, we got to see movements in like all these UPGs we're working with, like, you know, for years. And so there were like, you know, moments of like, you know, what every thought everyone thought was a breakthrough and people were, you know, were following that, following that. And then it gradually feels allowed.

So, okay. So this has been the pattern for the past 15 years. You know, we think something's happening and then it slowly dies out. And then something happens again and everyone gets excited and then something, you know, and then it peters out.

Don:

So when you say something happens and then it fades out, do you mean, um, there's, you know, dozens or hundreds of people confessing faith and then they, over time, they drift away from the faith? Does it look like that?

[57:29]

Or is it more the workers get excited and then they get discouraged?

Paul:

Well, it's more the first one. They see people coming to faith and churches like being formed and churches burning other churches, you know, generational growth. But it's not across the board.

It only happens in some places. in some like UPGs, you know, so you see like generation and the growth up to like the fourth, fifth generation and then you get excited.

Don:

Just for those who aren't familiar with this terminology like you and I are, when you say fourth generation you're not talking about children and grandchildren and great grandchildren, you're talking about spiritual generations, right?

Paul:

Yeah, I'm talking about churches birthing other churches. Yeah, that's one generation and then if they birth another church that's another generation.

Don:

Okay, yeah. So that's what's happening. It's happening, so there's growth happening and people are really excited, the leaders are really excited and then it stops. The growth stops? I mean the movement?

Paul:

The movement, well it's not exactly a movement, the growth stops. Okay. The growth stops, sometimes it shrinks, but you know it never, it never quite grows again and sometimes it shrinks and sometimes it disappears altogether.

So this has been the pattern for the past 15 years and I think now our my national partners, they are wiser. Okay. They realize that this is like not the golden key to see movements happening and again it comes away to recycling. You know, like we talked about deliverance and some of these materials, they don't do a good job on, well they don't, they hardly touch on deliverance and you know, they tell workers to get the amulets, get them to say a prayer of renunciation, but they don't go deep in terms of destroying strongholds and so this is one reason I think, like you know many people are reverting back to Islam because they're never really set free from Islam.

Yeah, they didn't, they weren't deeply discipled and they didn't learn how to walk in freedom. Yeah, I mean because the stress is on movements, we want them to share as fast as possible. Yeah. Even before, before they are even ready sometimes. So you know this is push for them to be sharing their faith and I think the, I think we've learned a lot over the years that we can't force these people to share when they're not ready and so a lot of, we have learned a lot of lessons of my national partners, you know.

Before they used to say, no we can't do it this way, we have to, you know, we can't be flexible, we need to do it this way. These days, follow the method. Yeah, you know, because that's what the trainer says, you know, you don't do it any other way, you just do it this way. Yeah, yeah. And so if you do it another way, you know, the blame is on you if it fails. So they're starting to realize it's not quite so simple. So a lot of workers, they get discouraged and, you know, yeah, I mean they feel guilty if like, if it doesn't work the way it's supposed to.

[01:01:56]

Yeah. And yeah, so it's not been really helpful. But I think we've grown over the years, we realize like that, you know, we can't make it happen. You know, it's not the methods, really, that will do the, yeah, that will bring people to faith. As you look at things now, then, do you feel like you and, you know, the partners you know, and are working with, they're starting to get a clearer vision that when people come to faith, they need to disciple deeply, they need to work with them and see them mature. And they're not so much focusing on rapidity, but depth.

Don:

Is that a shift that's happening? Are people looking for deeper discipleship?

Paul:

It's a shift, but it's a very slow shift. Okay. So it's not a new movement or a new trend. Yeah, it's been a slow shift. because you know what's happening is people are coming to faith but they're still going about doing their religious duties as a Muslim.

Okay, so they're sort of secret believers and they're acting like they're Muslim still. Yeah, so they're not thinking that they're outsiders, they're just being cautious, they want people to know. Yeah, some of them have never been like that religious anyway, you know, they've been nominal Muslims.

But for the most part, you know, people still identify themselves as Muslims. And like, you know, going through the deliverance course again, you know, it all makes sense now why these people can't grow in faith because like they're never really free from Islam. You know, they still have like, they still have all these spiritual like challenges, like that's like, you know, that's like that's going through their minds, their heart, tugging at them. And we are not helping by encouraging them to break free of Islam.

Don:

Yeah. Wow. Let me ask you one more question. We've gone longer than plan, but that's okay. It's good. It's been a great conversation and you have quite the story of God's grace in your life.

If you're to look back, you know, it's been 25 years you've been there. If you think back to your 25 year younger self, is there anything you would say to yourself from these 25 years of experience that you'd want to pass on maybe to younger colleagues who are just starting off?

Paul:

Yeah, I would say like get training in Islam because a lot of people here that come to the field are not really trained in Islam. I came to the field without any like, you know, real training in Islam, even though I grew up in a Muslim nation.

And second, I would say like, you know, find a mentor who can help you like navigate your time on the field. Again, I never really had a mentor from the context. Like, you know, I grew up in a context where, you know, where mission is, yeah, it's not a thing, you know, so I was not, I didn't have those kind of networks. But now, you know, I don't think it's a problem like finding those kind of missional networks.

People who are trained like you, who, you know, who've been on the field, who, you know, who know Islam, who know, you know, what discipling means, who know the challenges of like, you know, Muslim background believers.

[01:05:51]

So these are the two things I'll say, get training in Islam and get a great mentor.

Don:

Would you say then that maybe you're looking forward, that your focus, your ministry is shifting a bit and you're thinking more in terms of mentoring and equipping people, your partnerships?

Paul:

Yeah, yeah. So I think like going forward, that would be my role.

Yeah, I've made a lot of mistakes. And, you know, I'm learning from those mistakes. Wisdom comes through mistakes as long as we pay attention to what God's going to tell us. Yeah, yeah.

Don:

So any last thoughts or comments just to wind up any perspectives you want to share or anticipation and faith looking forward? Just any thoughts?

Paul:

Yeah, I think it's movements are happening. Genuine, many genuine people. We have to be sensitive to what the Spirit is calling us to do. Yeah, I realized like, yeah, maybe, you know, God is not calling me to launch a movement. Maybe to help other people launch a movement. So again, you know, the next 25 years, yeah, I want to be working with people who, yeah, who are trying to do like, launch movements or, yeah, see the kingdom come in this place.

Don:

Amen. Amen. May it be. Amen. Thank you for this conversation. and look forward to having others listen in to our conversation.

Paul:

Yeah, I hope it's a useful conversation though. I might have spoken too much.

Don:

No, it's been good. It's been very rich. And part of the reason for this podcast is to have actual experience, people talking about what it's really like, rather than just this romantic notion of how you do ministry. And in fact, it's often one failure after another.

And you realize you grow the hard way. It's good to be able to share. But God's been so good and gracious in your life and saved you and brought you out of bondage. And yeah, thank you for sharing.

Paul:

Thank you, Don. Thank you for having me. Yeah, I enjoyed it. I hope it's a blessing.

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