Afghan Refugees and the Power of Ordinary Welcome

Ruth Cassidy Interview

00:01.36

Don

So welcome Ruth to our Reflexio podcast.

00:05.56

Ruth

Thank you, it's so good to be with you, Don.

00:08.43

Don

It's great to be with you. And I've known you for a few years now and you know you've taken our courses. Like most of the students are half your age and you do the most work. You're more engaged than a lot of students.

00:21.40

Don

um But recently you've been involved with some pretty amazing things in Toronto, around Toronto with Afghan refugees, especially since the disaster a few years ago when the US pulled out of Afghanistan.

00:35.45

Don

Do you want to just tell us a little bit about that and get us started there, what you're involved in, but really what God's doing?

00:41.62

Ruth

Oh my, it's such a story to tell. i can't, looking back, it began in my heart with just a desire, think the Lord put in my heart to pray ah that I would have a Muslim friend.

00:58.89

Ruth

And so I prayed couple of years and then the Lord sent me a young woman. And through this young Afghan woman, who had suffered tremendous loss.

01:16.13

Ruth

Through her, I introduced her to a ah young, a man who had just arrived also in Canada a few years earlier, um a refugee from Afghanistan who was opening an Afghan church. So I gave him a call, Pastor Obed, and introduced him to my friend, and As he ministered, he brought his wife and they visited her and they looked after her her needs.

01:43.53

Ruth

And um through that, ah the Lord began opening the door to the Afghan community to me. So I became a part of his ministry, his church.

01:56.19

Ruth

And then when the, um in August of 2022, I believe it was, the Taliban took over um

02:07.24

Ruth

Afghanistan. um The door just opened ah for Pastor Obed and to um actually evacuate 530 Afghan refugees.

02:23.84

Ruth

families.

02:24.21

Don

Wow. Wow.

02:25.00

Ruth

three hundred and fifty of them have been Christian families And the ah the rest were vulnerable refugees who had worked with some of our American nonprofit organizations who were then at risk because of their involvement with the Americans.

02:42.17

Ruth

So they flew them out and flew them. They chartered a plane, were able to fly them out to Abu Dhabi and um had prearranged in Abu Dhabi put them up in a hostel.

02:48.59

Don

wow

02:57.89

Ruth

hostel a refugee hostel for a full year. And then they had prearranged with both the American government and the Canadian government ah to bring them to Canada.

03:09.82

Don

wow

03:09.82

Ruth

And so the Afghan church has been blossoming. um It's interesting, um families were arriving almost every week for a season there.

03:21.76

Ruth

And I remember going to church at the Afghan church And I don't understand the language, so I sit there and I kind of try to look at the overhead and see what scripture there. But I heard the pastor saying, talking to the people, and then I heard him say in the midst of his talking, and who is this woman?

03:42.09

Ruth

and I'm thinking, what's he talking about? ah began to freeze in my seat. Who is this woman, he says. Who is this woman? And then he brought me um to the front of the church and introduced me to the new arrivals.

03:58.35

Ruth

And he was telling them that I was responsible for them being in Canada.

04:03.53

Don

Wow. Wow.

04:07.30

Ruth

i I, spoke to the people. I welcomed them to Canada. obed did the translating for me. And I said, you're not here ah because of me.

04:15.98

Jenn

Thank you.

04:17.03

Ruth

You're here by the will of God. God has gone before you and provided a way for you to be here. And I said, you are welcome. And we will do what we can to make you feel at home here in Canada.

04:31.49

Ruth

And we're so glad to have you. So um his introduction of me to the people all of a sudden made me even more approachable and respected in the community. So it opened for me ministry opportunities to work with the Afghan people And um I am just, I can just see God providing that credibility for me to be with them because I don't speak the language. And I know that language training for those missionaries that want to go overseas is such a big thing.

05:12.11

Ruth

But here in Canada, I'm working with refugees. um Essentially, it's, it's, um, uh, It's is' easier for or not knowing the language.

05:30.30

Ruth

Don, jump in there.

05:30.58

Don

yeah you You've done yeah ESL teaching, right? So you've taught, you've even learned how to teach them English. that's That was, or maybe before the Afghans.

05:37.50

Ruth

Well, I went and took it. i I only have it through the li and event Literacy and Evangelism International. um I got the training from them. Somebody told me about it, and I thought, oh, and they use the Bible. So now I'm teaching online um these new immigrants coming in from ah Afghanistan, and they're just, you know, like week after week.

06:03.76

Ruth

They're getting new families coming in from this hostel in Abu Dhabi. and also from all the Afghans that had scattered. So they're still in contact with the Christians who had scattered into Tajikistan, Iran, Pakistan.

06:18.55

Ruth

So not only bringing the ones that they had evacuated, but um so I took the Literacy and Evangelism International, highly recommend it um Quickly ah learned what to do and started teaching these new refugees um English online.

06:39.39

Don

wow

06:39.47

Ruth

And it it, just the connection there and the getting to know of them.

06:44.80

Jenn

Who were you were your first students, Ruth?

06:50.29

Ruth

Well, my very first student ah came before the first group of refugees arrived. It was somebody that Pastor Obed had been um witnessing to, they were Muslim.

07:02.48

Ruth

And he said, Ruth, would you teach the wife? um She ah doesn't, um

07:13.59

Ruth

she's not literate even in her own language, and that's difficult.

07:18.49

Don

yeah.

07:19.55

Jenn

Yeah, sure.

07:20.10

Ruth

And she had a ah they fall ah from fist door balcony when they were living in a refugee situation outside of Afghanistan.

07:32.42

Ruth

And she I had, and in an earlier at an earlier stage of my life, had learned how to teach um people with learning disabilities.

07:42.74

Ruth

So I figured, okay, this is probably going to be a combination of a language problem, an English problem, and a learning disability problem.

07:53.11

Ruth

But it turned out to be a rich experience teaching her. and because we use the Bible stories, um She connected well with her son was named Noah, the story of Noah. She connected well. She understood the word Adam and Eve and and stories in the Islamic faith that they do talk about the prophets.

08:21.30

Ruth

So when we went through them all, she was able to, took a long time. ah think I was with her three or four years, so 12.

08:31.02

Jenn

Wow.

08:31.16

Don

Oh.

08:31.34

Ruth

ah That would have been no. Yeah, about that. And she says, Ruth, you taught me the alphabet. You had to teach the alphabet.

08:41.82

Jenn

Hmm.

08:42.49

Ruth

um And then when we stopped the teaching session, because of another reason here in my family, she was able to go to a local place and pick up, you know, learn it better.

09:00.79

Ruth

because of our experience together.

09:04.81

Jenn

That's good.

09:05.84

Ruth

Yeah, so she was the first and still is

09:05.90

Jenn

That's great.

09:09.68

Ruth

and my

09:12.92

Ruth

a student of mine. We're going to get back together again soon. Still friends.

09:18.70

Jenn

That's great.

09:21.05

Ruth

And moving towards faith in a big way takes a while.

09:21.07

Jenn

Yeah. Yeah.

09:25.97

Don

So, Ruth, it's not every day that You have a fairly well-established, wealthy Canadian woman who's spending all her time with poor refugees. i I mean, the Afghan refugees are only the latest. You've been involved with refugees for quite a long time. Do you want to tell anything about that?

09:49.64

Don

Just a story or how that started?

09:49.75

Ruth

Oh, yeah um we My husband had been transferred down to Washington, D.C. um When I got there, this is a miracle.

10:02.72

Ruth

um

10:03.06

Don

Okay.

10:03.66

Ruth

We were looking for a little house on a nice property because my husband loved to get ah garden.

10:10.51

Ruth

We looked at so many homes. he left He had to fly back to Toronto and he said, ah don't come home till you bought a house. And so in my hotel room, i I usually walk when I pray. so I'm walking around the hotel room praying.

10:28.44

Ruth

And for about two hours, I prayed, Lord, we've looked at all these houses. i don't know what to buy. And very clearly, it came to me a certain house to buy.

10:41.82

Ruth

it was the most pretentious house you've ever seen. so not me. And It eight bedrooms. And I'm thinking, we're empty nesters.

10:50.76

Don

It's still good.

10:52.50

Ruth

We've just left our kids, married off my daughter and left my son at university. We do not have children, just the two of us. There's an eight bedroom house, but we bought it. And I put my offer in really low. The Lord even told me what to put it in at. And my realtor was so offended.

11:11.43

Ruth

So I upped the price by 40,000 and she ah quite disgustingly said, okay, I'll put that in. and the offer was accepted.

11:22.19

Ruth

I got a call within 15 minutes and I knew they would probably would have taken at the lower price, but that was a miracle.

11:24.57

Don

Yeah.

11:29.00

Don

Yeah.

11:29.16

Ruth

And um within a week, I got a call from a niece out in Vancouver and she said a friend is in Washington. She's um ah interning at International Justice Mission.

11:46.26

Ruth

um and she's sleeping on somebody's couch. Would you have a bedroom for her? Would I have a bedroom? Yes. And within the next suite, I'm volunteering at IJM, and then all the rooms just fill up. And our house became a center for IJM. It was just starting. It's a mission to

12:10.49

Ruth

ah to... At the beginning, it started to rescue... ah women in sexual slavery.

12:18.07

Ruth

It's bigger than that now.

12:18.67

Don

I don't

12:20.14

Ruth

And um we became a center for ah retreats, prayer days apart, you know, from the office. So it must be full of interns.

12:31.75

Ruth

Anyways, my job at the office was to put their library online. So I'm looking through all these books they have on slavery and on what's happening all over the world and all things, and my jaw dropped.

12:48.71

Ruth

I was so aghast at the needs of people around the world and the abuse and the...

12:54.90

Jenn

Mm.

12:55.25

Don

Yeah.

12:58.70

Ruth

um

13:02.69

Ruth

It changed my focus from being focused on evangelizing my neighbors.

13:09.11

Jenn

Mm.

13:09.74

Ruth

to wanting to do something for people in distress who were from other countries.

13:15.03

Jenn

Mm.

13:18.06

Ruth

And so we were only there three years and moved back to Toronto and immediately became involved at Matthew House in Toronto.

13:28.36

Ruth

It's a refugee shelter for refugee claimants.

13:34.21

Ruth

And I started out just in the volunteer position. We'd take a meal once a week. You'd make the meal in the kitchen and everybody be coming and going and wanting to know what you're making.

13:45.87

Ruth

And then I'd serve it. We'd all sit down. It was a house with 12 residents. And the residents usually ah ah lived there maybe two months at the most. And then they would find apartments. But it would be their first place of home around the table, we would meet people from all over the world.

14:09.50

Don

Yeah.

14:09.85

Ruth

And the conversation, i remember one Mexican gentleman, i had served him chili, which is a pretty simple meal to me.

14:20.54

Ruth

and he just bowed his head. And he looked up and he was a weathered man. And he said to me, he said, today, he said, I eat like a king.

14:34.12

Ruth

And I'm thinking, it's only jelly. it's in ah It's in a, you know, ah old house in downtown Toronto, but you're around the table and you're with people and people from around the world.

14:47.74

Ruth

And we got through that house refugees from wherever there was a war in the world. That's where we get the people, lots from Columbia coming up, ah Zimbabwe when and they're,

15:01.91

Ruth

president went off the rails and was killing people who had been outside the country.

15:03.02

Jenn

Yeah.

15:07.34

Ruth

um Wherever there was a war, that's where we would get our refugees.

15:10.99

Don

Yeah,

15:13.99

Ruth

um

15:15.62

Don

I remember Matthew.

15:15.92

Ruth

yes

15:16.00

Jenn

yeah

15:16.46

Don

i was, yeah.

15:17.66

Ruth

So Matthew House was my first and ah first contact, and it never stopped. So that was in 2003. twenty twenty or three And it's been, I've been working with refugees ever since.

15:32.43

Jenn

Wow.

15:32.84

Don

Wow.

15:33.25

Ruth

Lovely.

15:34.39

Jenn

Yeah.

15:35.72

Ruth

Interesting.

15:37.69

Jenn

Now you, I assumed you, well, I just assume you did that.

15:38.07

Don

Jen, you've got a question.

15:41.12

Jenn

Did you bring your family along with you as you did it? Or was this something that you engaged with on your own?

15:45.07

Ruth

um and No, not really. Brian had, um he was on the board of Pioneers Canada

15:54.85

Ruth

And he's a businessman, so he contributed ah to mission maybe from more the business side of things, um who did come along as my daughter and her children.

16:02.07

Jenn

Yeah.

16:06.56

Ruth

Her children would have been young at the time. I think the youngest was born in 2003.

16:08.57

Jenn

Yeah.

16:11.92

Ruth

so um But as they grew up, they they did get exposure to some of these refugees.

16:18.10

Jenn

Yeah.

16:21.25

Don

Thank you.

16:21.73

Ruth

I have been involved with Matthew House. ever since. We're strong supporters of them as well as

16:27.39

Jenn

yeah yeah What have you seen change, I mean, in these 20 years plus as you've been with that ministry?

16:39.77

Ruth

I see more people interested, more people getting involved, more Christians.

16:42.34

Jenn

16:46.56

Ruth

I think this is more unique to Canada than to America. I'm not sure. Don, you'd have to let me know what

16:54.98

Ruth

But there seems to be, um there was for a season there, just a compassion amongst the Canadians and within the churches. I'd like to see more because there's sometimes an unawareness.

During that time, there was a very real sense that God was leading the church, and we were just running to keep up with what God was doing. And there was a very real sense, and it was in our heart, and we knew this, that God had a heart for refugees.

20:12.49

Ruth

God was concerned about the refugees.

20:12.88

Jenn

Wow.

20:15.52

Ruth

And so that year in December, I started a... ah a um a Doctor of Missiology course at Fuller. And this was what I wanted to investigate. What was God's heart for refugees?

20:30.17

Jenn

Wow.

20:30.60

Ruth

And ah to study the Bible with with ah an eye for refugees in mind. And oh my ae

20:37.53

Jenn

Hmm.

20:40.74

Ruth

I cannot tell you the influence that had on me and how what I learned from my studies had on the refugees I was meeting.

20:45.03

Jenn

Wow.

20:51.58

Ruth

my interview subjects in there.

20:51.75

Don

20:52.62

Jenn

Yeah,

20:54.38

Ruth

Let me, ah do I, have I was going to say tell you about this one woman.

20:59.63

Jenn

we'd love to hear.

20:59.78

Ruth

She was now on the board of Matthew House and she had come up from the U.S. She was Zimbabwean and she had been absolutely devastated by the refugee experience.

21:10.81

Ruth

It can be humiliating, going before courts and everything like that.

21:13.02

Jenn

Absolutely.

21:14.98

Ruth

Absolutely humiliating.

21:15.25

Jenn

my goodness. Yeah.

21:17.23

Ruth

She was her, Her self-worth, her her dignity had been so damaged.

21:25.28

Jenn

Yeah.

21:28.44

Ruth

And when I began talking about the scriptures and how much God has to say about refugees and the fact that most of the authors of scripture were themselves refugees at one time, they the depression she had, it lifted.

21:46.14

Jenn

Wow.

21:47.33

Ruth

Her eyes brightened. Because I think many refugees who are Christian think God is punishing them by bringing them through a refugee situation, that they're under the curse or the punishment of God.

22:02.22

Jenn

Yeah, of course.

22:03.11

Ruth

And when she realized that God loves refuge refugees and he he uses refugees and he has a purpose in the journey, ah she said to me later, the next time I talked to her, she said, Ruth,

22:13.50

Jenn

Hmm.

22:19.47

Ruth

When you told me that, I found my friend in England who was suffering the same as I was suffering.

22:28.03

Jenn

Hmm.

22:29.03

Ruth

She says, and I told her about how scripture, how much of scripture is written by and to refugees.

22:40.59

Jenn

Hmm.

22:40.64

Ruth

She said, my friend who was in terrible depression, she said she began to see

22:45.42

Don

Is that it?

22:49.02

Ruth

that God had a purpose for her in her new country. And both of them went forward with this new vision of how God could use their circumstances and their journey for his glory.

22:53.51

Jenn

Wow.

23:04.48

Jenn

a

23:04.58

Don

and

23:04.77

Ruth

It was really it was really um pivotal in hers ah her walk forward.

23:06.53

Jenn

That's amazing. Yeah.

23:14.39

Ruth

She took hold of her jobs and the things God had given her to do when she was here with a new purpose and energy.

23:21.96

Jenn

um

23:23.07

Ruth

ah She said, I stopped being a champion of other people, which is what she did in Zimbabwe, a champion of the poor, to listening to God, hearing what God was telling me to do and walking.

23:40.88

Ruth

And she said it was a different it's a different attitude. She says, I used to be the leader the leader the champion. Now I'm learning to listen.

23:54.23

Ruth

What is God telling me to do next?

23:54.63

Jenn

Wow.

23:56.41

Ruth

How can I help by understanding

24:02.47

Jenn

Yeah.

24:02.95

Ruth

ah God in me and God working through me?

24:06.03

Jenn

Yeah.

24:06.76

Ruth

And and and so

24:06.90

Jenn

Wow.

24:09.75

Ruth

her hurt her um her transformation was almost instant.

24:15.90

Don

wow

24:16.16

Jenn

Wow.

24:16.93

Ruth

Yeah, it it was it was a very fascinating thing for me. and i could And I wrote about that in my dissertation, how it gave her purpose.

24:23.35

Jenn

wow

24:24.60

Ruth

And it

24:25.90

Jenn

a

24:26.49

Ruth

and um informs me um that when I meet up with refugees, Christian refugees in particular, and I am interested how can

24:30.18

Jenn

na

24:38.73

Ruth

um how can i

24:43.19

Ruth

revive in someone who has been a Christian back home in their homeland, and they come here and they're so broken, back into the

24:47.79

Jenn

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

24:50.59

Don

Yeah.

24:54.85

Ruth

into the calling that they had before.

24:56.80

Jenn

Yeah. Yeah.

24:59.02

Ruth

and And that's how I see my working with Pastor Robed too, was watching him take hold

25:07.48

Ruth

oh the mission he had.

25:11.78

Jenn

you

25:12.47

Ruth

you know, in India where he was in exile and bring that mission here to Canada.

25:20.13

Jenn

That sounds like discipleship. you know

25:22.56

Ruth

Yeah, yeah, I think it is.

25:23.49

Jenn

i think when we

25:24.93

Ruth

think you're right there, Jen.

25:25.05

Jenn

when we go through When we go through suffering, i think it causes, maybe it feels like shaky ground. you know can god Is God big enough for for all of this?

25:35.33

Ruth

And,

25:37.33

Jenn

Is my faith big enough to hold this?

25:40.00

Ruth

yes.

25:40.97

Jenn

Yeah.

25:41.67

Ruth

and in And it is, and it's in it

25:47.24

Ruth

it's removing, I think, ah a self-condemnation, um that thinking that maybe um being a refugee.

25:57.95

Ruth

Another young man, ah Leo, and when he arrived, he says, Ruth, we've got to change the definition of refugee in the eyes of people.

26:11.67

Ruth

It's such a shameful word to them.

26:14.62

Jenn

Yeah, for sure.

26:15.11

Ruth

um once they've come Once they've earned their ah permanent residence in Canada, they want to shed the identity that they were ever a refugee. They they want they don't want anybody to know they were ever a refugee.

26:32.22

Jenn

Of course.

26:32.60

Don

You hide it. Yeah. Yeah.

26:33.72

Ruth

And he says, we've got to reframe that in our churches to be a positive thing.

26:33.77

Jenn

Yeah. Yeah.

26:37.81

Jenn

Yeah.

26:40.17

Ruth

The churches have to speak of it in terms of, in it through God's eyes, through through biblical reframing of the term refugee.

26:40.28

Jenn

26:50.17

Jenn

Yeah.

26:52.63

Jenn

26:53.63

Ruth

So Leo and another young man, they did what that we call the ride for refugees.

27:04.35

Ruth

And they were cycling from Montreal to Toronto to raise money.

27:04.54

Jenn

yeah. Hmm. yeah

27:09.68

Jenn

m

27:09.81

Don

All right.

27:09.99

Ruth

for refugees, and he's a refugee. And he stops at a at the end of a farmer's drive driveway, and the farmer was getting his mail out of the mailbox.

27:22.49

Ruth

And so they got talking to him about refugees. And oh, yeah, the guy was, those refugees, he said, um they all become, what was it, drug dealers.

27:35.52

Ruth

yeah

27:36.09

Jenn

Yeah. Talk about changing the narrative.

27:37.06

Ruth

Yeah, 50% of them become drug dealers. Anyway, he had this concept of refugees.

27:39.07

Jenn

Yeah. Yeah. um

27:42.49

Ruth

And then Leo got to say, well, I'm a refugee. yeah

27:45.81

Jenn

Yeah.

27:46.43

Ruth

And the farmer was shocked. ah So so he's he was giving that illustration.

27:53.37

Jenn

no

27:53.94

Ruth

said, Ruth, if there's any way in in our and our news,

28:01.09

Ruth

in the public eye, in our churches, particularly, I think my...

28:02.76

Jenn

yeah

28:08.51

Ruth

personal mandate at the time or in in writing was to inform the churches or two ah help the churches um work with refugees and maybe understand them and maybe even appreciate their value, particularly the Christian refugees coming to the churches as missionaries here in North America.

28:26.78

Jenn

Yeah. Yeah.

28:35.88

Jenn

Yeah, that's so good. It's like reframing the narrative that is so, um it's so necessary, i think, because the narrative can cause fear.

28:37.61

Ruth

Yeah.

28:47.40

Jenn

it can cause just a disengagement or a lack of compassion, which, yeah.

28:52.40

Ruth

and it's very negative some of the uh like if i were which i didn't do but if i had gone and maybe researched what people think refugees become

28:53.69

Jenn

Yeah. yeah

29:02.49

Ruth

um

29:03.82

Jenn

Yeah.

29:03.90

Ruth

Even when I was doing my research, I did have Christians who were very negative about um negative ah negative about refugees in Canada and the and the government opening the borders to let them in.

29:21.84

Ruth

and so it's So it's very prevalent in the church as much as in the general public.

29:26.67

Jenn

Yeah.

29:26.97

Ruth

Very negative attitudes.

29:29.54

Jenn

Yeah.

29:32.17

Don

Just interested, Ruth, because um and i've i've worked I was in Canada. We started Adam House you know after looking at Matthew House.

29:40.21

Ruth

29:44.91

Don

And a lot of the the immigrants that come in as refugees, the ones who come in, the fleeing persecution, they're strong Christians, they're excited. They come to Canada, they end up getting somehow settled.

30:00.82

Don

They take two or three part-time jobs and in three years, four years, they've sort of wandered away from the faith and they've they haven't become Muslims again, but they've just been so swamped by life in Canada.

30:11.38

Jenn

you

30:15.86

Don

You've talked about how to get them to rethink their experience so they can embrace their refugee. have you Can you tell some other stories or how is that working in the church that you're connected with?

30:27.61

Don

Are these people getting excited that that they are, you know, the future of Canada's church, that they've got so much to contribute. um How is it working out in your experience?

30:38.52

Ruth

um our Our church did bring over one Syrian Christian family and the Syrian Christian family did come, but they would come from a um ah Catholic background. so And they didn't have the language.

30:56.45

Ruth

So they moved back to their their roots, the Catholic church.

31:01.04

Jenn

Wow. me

31:04.85

Ruth

um It was interesting to me when they did come, they came for the year. um when When a church sponsors refugees, they're obligated for one full year to cover all their expenses, which is fair.

31:14.51

Don

31:20.21

Ruth

After that, ah the families, by then you hope they all have jobs and they're settled and they can care for themselves.

31:25.28

Jenn

Hmm. Hmm. Okay.

31:28.00

Ruth

If not, they can go on welfare, although we don't encourage it.

31:30.64

Jenn

okay

31:33.31

Ruth

Um, I thought it was interesting. One of the sessions at church, we ah we put ah we got them translation, Arabic translation. um They could put um something in their ear, I think, and hear the Arabic translation while the sermon was going.

31:52.41

Ruth

ah One of the sermon series was on um Jonah.

31:57.55

Jenn

Hmm.

31:57.76

Ruth

And this family came from the plains of Nineveh.

32:01.81

Jenn

Crazy.

32:02.39

Don

Wow. yeah

32:03.22

Jenn

That's fun.

32:03.92

Ruth

so so that was a god thing but and so i could see the husband looking at the right nineveh you know jonah and in nineveh they have the tomb of jonah and uh which isis blew up by the way um but uh something that is one of their holy sites there um

32:07.75

Jenn

Hmm.

32:15.72

Jenn

Hmm.

32:22.28

Jenn

Wow.

32:26.88

Ruth

Yeah, there is a connection and we still connect, although they've they're now ah back at their own language church. And I think that's to be expected to some degree for the parents at least.

32:40.62

Ruth

The children would come back to maybe the youth groups and things like that.

32:40.63

Jenn

no

32:45.44

Ruth

But so unless it's in their own language and i guess their own culture, it's hard to fit in hard to fit into a Canadian church.

32:50.37

Jenn

Yeah. e

32:56.34

Jenn

It is really, i imagine, so hard.

32:58.90

Ruth

Yeah.

32:59.76

Jenn

Yeah.

33:00.02

Ruth

and

33:00.13

Jenn

Yeah.

33:01.17

Ruth

yeah um and they And we still keep in touch. And I'm still praying that they'll come to a a fervent understanding of um ah Jesus as the the the our Savior, their Savior.

33:18.69

Jenn

33:19.33

Ruth

you know and ah And I know some of it can get through in in the liturgy and in the...

33:19.41

Jenn

33:27.04

Ruth

but

33:27.27

Jenn

e

33:28.79

Don

So i was I was asking more about, like you said, there were like 300 families that your pastor brought over that were Christians from Afghanistan.

33:28.93

Ruth

Exactly.

33:39.32

Don

So these would all have been former Muslims who were Christian.

33:40.27

Ruth

Yeah.

33:43.73

Ruth

Yeah.

33:43.76

Don

You were were just talking about a culturally Christian Middle Easterner.

33:48.60

Ruth

yeah

33:49.43

Don

These 350 Afghans who settle in Canada, is it working out um that they...

33:57.94

Ruth

um

33:58.83

Don

getting engaged in their faith and in the, I mean, maybe still in Afghan culture, but are they they still eager to be Christians or they, it depends. I mean, it's,

34:09.75

Ruth

ah It's interesting, Don, because they all didn't come to Toronto.

34:14.81

Don

okay.

34:15.53

Ruth

You see, the Canadian government agreed to bring them in, so they sort of settled them across Canada.

34:22.03

Jenn

Yeah.

34:22.22

Don

Okay.

34:24.84

Ruth

And that's where I sort of came in, because I would get my ESL classes, students from British Columbia, which is the other side of the country, and

34:34.69

Jenn

Yeah. Yeah. he

34:37.86

Ruth

students from different places across Canada. um

34:45.44

Ruth

From what I see, yes, um coming in a group like that um has helped.

34:54.34

Don

OK.

34:57.89

Ruth

And I would say, by and by and large, they help one another. the um you would never find their church. I know how to get it, and it's just a great big steel door with a steel

35:19.04

Ruth

staircase, you know, the old up to it. You would have no sign on the door, but when you go there, all these families are together. Church is not only sermon.

35:26.94

Jenn

o

35:31.68

Ruth

Church is they stay till all hours afterwards.

35:35.37

Jenn

Yeah, yeah.

35:36.79

Ruth

um even the babies,

35:39.48

Jenn

Yeah.

35:40.52

Ruth

um the toddlers, all running wild.

35:43.71

Don

Thank

35:44.42

Ruth

um

35:44.84

Jenn

There's something about being together as a community.

35:48.11

Ruth

Coming in a group like that, i think, and they were all put in the same place in Abu Dhabi, in the same hostel.

35:49.63

Jenn

Yeah, the solidarity of experience and of culture. Yeah.

35:57.48

Ruth

um The church here, Obed was very careful. He assigned four leaders, and broke the people down into four groups of people.

36:10.60

Ruth

And each leader had a group to oversee.

36:14.49

Jenn

I

36:15.03

Ruth

And when ah the families experienced need or had questions or had complaints, they would go to their group leader.

36:16.32

Don

Yeah.

36:26.54

Ruth

So it's much like Moses.

36:28.73

Jenn

i was going to say, it sounds like Jeff Rowan.

36:29.87

Ruth

Yeah, in the wilderness, they got the leaders.

36:31.54

Jenn

Yes, yes, yes.

36:34.08

Ruth

ah That's what Obed did with the, but so they were a full year in Abu Dhabi and in the same location.

36:36.16

Jenn

Wow.

36:40.65

Jenn

Wow.

36:42.90

Ruth

So getting to know one another. And

36:46.97

Jenn

Yeah.

36:48.13

Ruth

also every Friday they would have services and Obed would join their service and they would have baptisms every Friday.

36:57.10

Jenn

That's amazing.

36:57.33

Ruth

um, the um

37:01.63

Ruth

Not all got baptized back home when they were back home at home churches. um Even then, ah the baptisms had to be very secretive.

37:12.67

Jenn

Of course.

37:13.49

Ruth

Even in a home church, one of my students explained it to me.

37:13.93

Jenn

Yeah.

37:17.94

Ruth

When her baptism came, she went upstairs in the house with the pastor in a locked room, and he baptized her so that if any of the other

37:26.87

Jenn

Wow.

37:29.86

Ruth

people in the home church were ever questioned by the police, they could say, I've never seen

37:32.53

Jenn

Yeah.

37:35.63

Ruth

No, we I have not seen that.

37:35.73

Jenn

That's right. Right.

37:38.46

Ruth

ah That's how they got around.

37:42.53

Jenn

Yeah. In all honesty, I didn't see that. Yes.

37:44.95

Ruth

but Exactly.

37:45.99

Jenn

Yeah. Yeah.

37:47.15

Ruth

Although they knew that was the baptism room.

37:48.96

Jenn

Right. Right. What?

37:52.89

Ruth

Obed would say that a home church in Afghanistan, probably five people in a home church, the maximum you would ever get was 10 because it's so dangerous there.

37:53.37

Jenn

Yeah.

37:59.67

Jenn

Absolutely,

38:02.13

Don

Yeah.

38:03.56

Jenn

absolutely. absolutely

38:05.74

Ruth

And, so it was interesting for me um as a teacher to these, you know, teaching English to hear these kinds of stories. And I thought, oh my, um,

38:22.27

Ruth

the fear and yet the the witness, the graciousness of God to make alive new faith in Christ under those circumstances, under such difficult circumstances.

40:47.74

Ruth

Being a pastor of that kind of church is not an easy role.

40:52.23

Jenn

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you, Ruth.

40:54.84

Ruth

But I do notice, and you asked me this question, what about the ones who were called to minister, the ones who were leaders? um We have tried to find, Obed has tried to find seminaries for these young men and training for them.

41:11.46

Jenn

Hmm.

41:14.32

Ruth

And because of the language, um no none of our Bible colleges will take them really until they learn the language first.

41:22.32

Jenn

Yeah.

41:22.80

Don

yeah oh

41:23.52

Ruth

And ah so to get the proper training, I think a lot of it has to come online, which is not the easiest setting and to get your seminary training.

41:25.58

Jenn

Access, yeah.

41:30.28

Don

oh no

41:30.57

Jenn

No, it's not right. Right. Hmm.

41:34.31

Ruth

um So i think there's room maybe at some of our colleges to bring in some well-trained Arabic speakers, well-trained Farsi speakers to set up schools.

41:50.34

Jenn

Hmm.

41:52.11

Don

Yeah.

41:52.12

Jenn

Yeah.

41:52.17

Ruth

They need training.

41:52.21

Don

Yeah. Yeah.

41:53.67

Jenn

Yeah.

41:54.36

Ruth

They need to be mentored.

41:55.99

Jenn

Yeah. Ruth, what would you say to people who are listening now and hearing your story and wondering, what could I do? How could i begin to engage in this kind of loving people, loving those that are coming to our city?

42:12.46

Ruth

Refugees.

42:13.41

Jenn

Yeah.

42:15.09

Ruth

um I probably would suggest maybe becoming a volunteer at Matthew House or Micah House in Hamilton. Another one, um you would not be able to work at the Afghan church immediately.

42:32.42

Ruth

um that you That's in Toronto.

42:33.37

Don

not just Toronto, just anywhere in the world. And I'm just saying.

42:37.75

Ruth

ah They've got a network of churches now across Canada, um and they communicate through technology. um Probably,

42:53.52

Ruth

um ESL classes either starting a a

42:56.53

Jenn

Hmm. Hmm.

43:05.77

Ruth

it you know finding a location maybe um it people are scattered this is the problem finding an actual location scattered over large distances um

43:14.27

Jenn

Yes, for sure. Yeah.

43:24.48

Jenn

Yeah.

43:24.66

Ruth

An ESL school, maybe, that is Christian-focused and uses the Bible as some your reading material. ah Literacy and Evangelism International.

43:35.12

Ruth

They have one called Light of the World.

43:36.27

Don

and the

43:38.67

Ruth

And they will do the training. um They're outstanding in providing you with the curriculum and with the training. um And then...

43:48.15

Jenn

That's

43:51.69

Ruth

Maybe take it to your home church and say, could we do this in my home church?

43:56.96

Jenn

good.

43:58.13

Ruth

How else?

44:01.10

Ruth

Just reaching out to your neighbor, maybe.

44:03.25

Jenn

That's really good.

44:05.38

Don

Canada had this unique situation that they didn't have in the States where when all these refugees were coming in, not just Afghans previously, especially in the Iraq situation in Syria, um that a church could sponsor people or a family could sponsor, I'll take a family.

44:24.69

Don

One of our long-term friends out in Vancouver said, oh, we'll take a family. So they they sponsored a family that came from Iraq or something.

44:34.05

Jenn

a

44:34.43

Don

And they They journeyed with them for years. They got involved. They were tutoring. They were babysitting their kids. It's like, suddenly their whole life was about ministry to a refugee. You know, he was an early retiree. They had time.

44:46.03

Don

And it's just amazing how much they got involved without any previous. They'd been thinking and praying ah about our ministry for 30 years, but they'd never had any neighbors themselves.

44:56.62

Don

But because they spoke this family, it just changed their lives. They were so involved.

45:00.32

Jenn

For sure, yeah.

45:02.18

Don

So, you

45:02.69

Ruth

i am That is it. They can do that. and But they have to get the church involved.

45:06.15

Don

Yeah.

45:08.30

Ruth

You as an individual, as a family, ah can say, okay, I'd like to sponsor um a refugee family. um It's important to take it to your church.

45:20.25

Jenn

45:20.33

Ruth

And then they can apply.

45:20.39

Jenn

45:22.34

Ruth

We've had this program going now since the in Canada, it's well established. ah The Christian Reformed Church has a massive um presence in this field.

45:35.01

Ruth

um the um The Baptist Fellowship do, the Catholics do, the Anglicans do, all the mainline churches um are ah approved by the Canadian government to be what we call sponsorship agreement holders.

45:36.13

Don

Wow.

45:40.06

Jenn

night

45:53.33

Jenn

Hmm.

45:53.42

Ruth

um They have been approved. They've been given given a quota at the beginning of every year. you have so many X number of refugees you you can bring in. And then they work with the individual church um to help them bring over a family.

46:10.64

Jenn

Hmm.

46:11.18

Ruth

um When we brought over a family from Afghanistan, a family of six orphans, they weren't orphans at the time.

46:19.00

Don

wow

46:19.99

Ruth

They did have a mother. She died while they were in ah Tajikistan in exile um or in a refugee situation.

46:24.91

Jenn

Oh my goodness.

46:29.69

Ruth

ah mean Pardon me. Our sponsorship agreement holder was the Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada. And they were amazing. They went to immediately to advocate to expedite this family.

46:44.95

Jenn

Wow.

46:45.27

Ruth

We couldn't. The law said you can't bring over it minors. By the grace of God, and this is another miracle, the eldest had just turned 18.

46:53.42

Don

Thank you.

46:54.63

Jenn

Wow.

46:54.87

Ruth

So we put her in as the adult.

46:59.91

Ruth

And she was their mature adult.

47:06.44

Jenn

Wow.

47:06.63

Ruth

i

47:06.96

Jenn

Of

47:07.27

Ruth

She was a basket case. She had just lost her mother, and she was sitting in her home with her scarf over her head.

47:10.40

Jenn

course.

47:13.84

Jenn

Yeah, so much grief.

47:14.56

Ruth

And the boys were maybe the stronger ones, but...

47:17.74

Jenn

47:18.51

Ruth

a ah the um the government moved quickly and brought them over faster than they would normally.

47:26.22

Don

Wow.

47:28.35

Jenn

That's wonderful.

47:28.56

Ruth

ah

47:29.51

Jenn

Yeah.

47:29.75

Ruth

um So sponsorship, as so so yes, sponsor a refugee family. That would be it so

47:36.70

Don

That works for Canadians, but it doesn't work anywhere else.

47:36.84

Ruth

That's amazing. amazing Yeah.

47:40.77

Jenn

Yeah, i wonder.

47:41.04

Ruth

It's starting a little bit in the U.S., I think.

47:41.52

Don

Yeah.

47:43.76

Jenn

Yeah.

47:44.15

Ruth

But um there is...

47:44.14

Jenn

Yeah.

47:44.51

Don

Yeah.

47:47.16

Ruth

In the U.S., who to go through for anything refugee would be International Association for Refugee. The head of it is Tom Albenson. Amazing, amazing man.

47:56.63

Don

Wow. Wow.

47:58.93

Ruth

And he's up to date on all this. um Works with refugees worldwide. and Perhaps the foremost um guru on refugee issues in the U.S. So...

48:17.09

Ruth

to you down there, go to him. He'll help you bring in a refugee family.

48:19.59

Jenn

Yeah. That's

48:22.26

Ruth

He'll help you get involved.

48:24.26

Jenn

so good, Ruth. I'm curious as as we um yeah have listened to you share about your experience and...

48:35.98

Jenn

You have a lot of years of learning and growing and practicing. And what would you, yeah, tell your younger self? What do you wish that you knew as at the beginning, that you know now?

48:52.23

Jenn

um

48:53.14

Ruth

I think for me, I've always, ah big so because of my family's heart for mission um and belonging to a very large multicultural congregation, and also in my um family home, having always taking in the poor.

49:12.80

Jenn

49:20.89

Ruth

My brother was always... bringing home the homeless and my mother would put them up. um

49:31.16

Ruth

ah There was

49:37.57

Ruth

um ah warmth, a um ah ah love, I guess, for the international, internationals.

49:38.67

Don

Thank you.

49:43.61

Jenn

Hmm.

49:48.53

Ruth

So what would I tell my younger self?

49:53.18

Ruth

um Probably, Ruth, you'll never know because I had wanted to be an overseas missionary.

49:59.97

Jenn

Hmm.

50:01.15

Ruth

Someday you will be, but they will have come here.

50:03.17

Jenn

Yeah. Yes.

50:05.66

Ruth

i guess that would be a a disappointment that I didn't, you know, I couldn't go overseas, but maybe if I had known that God was gonna bring them here

50:09.71

Jenn

Hmm. Hmm.

50:15.12

Jenn

Yeah.

50:16.72

Don

i'm here

50:16.99

Jenn

Yeah.

50:20.46

Jenn

And just that God cares about your dreams.

50:21.31

Ruth

would get to interact Yes, I think so.

50:23.02

Jenn

Yeah. Yeah.

50:24.33

Ruth

so um Interesting. I never thought of it that way. There was a bit of a disappointment because there's sort of adventure to a young person to think, I must go over to these.

50:33.65

Jenn

Yeah.

50:38.25

Jenn

Right.

50:38.66

Ruth

You know, that's where the adventure lies.

50:39.41

Jenn

Yeah. Yeah.

50:41.88

Ruth

But

50:43.75

Don

You've certainly had a lot of adventure here the last few years.

50:43.76

Jenn

I think the adventure lies, i was going say, well, the adventure lies with God, right?

50:43.93

Ruth

the the adventure lies here.

50:46.75

Don

Thank

50:49.52

Jenn

Our lives with God and all that unfolds as we follow him, right?

50:54.90

Ruth

Yeah, I think that's what I would say to a younger person, thinking about it.

51:04.35

Jenn

Yeah.

51:04.87

Ruth

God puts his desires in our hearts when we when we when we are um submitted to him, when we love him. His desires become our desires.

51:13.57

Jenn

Yes.

51:16.59

Ruth

And that desire to go overseas was fulfilled in a different way.

51:24.90

Jenn

Yeah.

51:25.48

Ruth

But it was fulfilled very richly.

51:27.93

Jenn

Yeah.

51:29.03

Ruth

Yeah.

51:29.03

Jenn

That's really beautiful, Ruth.

51:30.56

Ruth

Yeah.

51:31.45

Jenn

Thank you. Yeah. Yeah.

51:35.71

Don

you have any comments just about, don't know, what God may be doing with the bigger refugee global movement of peoples? I mean, we've got, what is it, 70 million people living outside of their homes or more.

51:53.94

Don

Because,

51:54.01

Ruth

I do believe it is God at work. I do believe that God is behind all this.

51:57.23

Jenn

52:01.89

Ruth

And that I go to talking about borders.

52:07.41

Don

Yeah.

52:08.14

Jenn

52:12.24

Jenn

52:12.69

Ruth

ah God sets the boundaries and God moves boundaries.

52:13.89

Don

Yeah.

52:18.50

Jenn

e

52:18.76

Don

Yeah.

52:19.49

Ruth

And it says there that some may may even grasp there's this groping in the dark almost, and that in this groping, they might be found.

52:28.36

Jenn

Hmm.

52:32.34

Ruth

And I think in that scripture, it's an opportunity if you can see yourself as the the family of God, the church of God, that if somebody is groping for God in this dark place of moving boundaries, where is the church?

52:40.56

Jenn

Hmm.

52:50.05

Ruth

Are we there? Are we... um

52:54.66

Jenn

Yeah.

52:55.14

Ruth

bringing the light to the darkness.

52:57.10

Jenn

Hmm.

52:58.48

Ruth

um And um are we there? Are we there?

53:06.99

Don

Amen.

53:07.26

Ruth

That would be it.

53:08.27

Jenn

me Are we there? Yeah.

53:10.87

Ruth

Are we there for them? Are we there to shine a light? Are we there to give a hand? Are we there? And at the beginning, a lot of it is just giving, giving to meet their need, but it's in the giving.

53:25.10

Ruth

And it's in the kindness that you so shine the light.

53:27.36

Jenn

o

53:31.13

Ruth

And even if you don't see the fruit of giving and kindness,

53:43.78

Ruth

um down through that person's life, that will always be a memory. That will always be come back

53:53.92

Jenn

me

53:54.38

Ruth

And that will always be a light in their life um that they might find him, that they might find him. I think that's, yeah.

54:04.82

Don

That's a great ah great way to conclude our conversation. i mean, we could talked about two more hours.

54:09.34

Jenn

absolutely

54:09.72

Ruth

Yeah.

54:11.75

Don

Maybe we should have another episode in the future, but

54:12.49

Jenn

but Yeah.

54:13.24

Ruth

Yeah.

54:14.75

Jenn

we can charge re Yeah.

54:15.39

Don

It's exciting to see you in the way God is drawing you into these relationships. Encourage this pastor who's been so instrumental.

54:24.20

Jenn

Yeah.

54:24.92

Don

just You're just available and you love and you serve and you you study so you grow more equipped.

54:33.30

Jenn

yeah It's wonderful, Ruth.

54:34.00

Don

Yeah, it's a beautiful story.

54:34.15

Ruth

and

54:35.63

Jenn

Thank you. Thank you.

54:37.19

Don

good

54:37.59

Ruth

Well, as I was going to even say, the study is a miracle. And the Lord told me that because my family was poor. And so all of us worked. The moment we turned 16, we all had to go out and work.

54:50.51

Ruth

And yet the opportunity to go back and, you know, I was in the middle of grade 11, had to leave. um And yet the Lord, yet I always wanted know more. And the Lord just kept opening doors to study.

55:04.53

Jenn

a

55:06.96

Ruth

So that was,

55:07.06

Jenn

It's so good.

55:09.51

Jenn

So good.

55:10.25

Don

Yeah. And you still take the chance now and take whole courses to me.

55:12.65

Jenn

That's great. So good.

55:13.76

Ruth

ah but love it, love it.

55:14.69

Jenn

du

55:15.80

Don

Yeah.

55:15.88

Jenn

Don't stop learning is what I hear you say, Ruth.

55:17.50

Ruth

And I find that in the refugees, you know, they're they're they not educated, yet they love to study.

55:18.03

Don

Yeah.

55:24.67

Ruth

You know, they're in school, they're studying art, and they love to learn.

55:24.65

Jenn

and so

55:30.10

Don

yeah

55:30.14

Jenn

That's so good. Thank you, Ruth, for being with us today.

55:32.31

Ruth

Thank you. Bless you.

55:34.52

Don

Thank you.

55:36.03

Jenn

Really enjoyed

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