A Somali’s Resilient Faith through Persecution

00:00:27.25
Don
So welcome our always to the Reflexio podcast. We're delighted to have you today.

00:00:32.56
Aweis
Thank you so much. Thank you for having me.

00:00:36.30
Don
It was great to meet you a couple of months ago

00:00:48.30
Don
We just want to have your story be shared with people. So can you just start somewhere near the beginning of you know where you grew up, what your life was like and how you came to to know Christ and then we'll go from there.

00:01:03.21
Aweis
Yes, and my name is Awais Ali. I was born to a Muslim family in Somalia. I became a seeker when I was 15 because I was very unhappy with the teachings of Islam.

00:01:20.81
Aweis
My dad was a madrasa teacher, a Quranic school teacher, and he's the primary person who taught me Islam.

00:01:26.95
Jenn
Thank you.

00:01:29.77
Aweis
Whenever I had challenging questions about the teachings of Islam and the life of Muhammad, the prophet, my dad discouraged these questions.

00:01:41.04
Aweis
He considered them and to be beneath me as the son of a Muslim cleric.

00:01:48.65
Don

00:01:48.59
Aweis
So when I was 15, came across a Somali Christian radio ministry by the mission organization called SIM. And I listened to the radio program and for three years.

00:02:04.91
Aweis
The radio program was based in Nairobi, Kenya at the time. And I was, of course, in Mogadishu, Somalia. So that was the early 80s. So I would write letters to them. That's before internet.

00:02:19.18
Aweis
And they would send me Bible study materials. And I became a follower of Christ because of that radio ministry. in 1986 and the radio ministry continued to bless me with bible study materials and other literature until the Somali government collapsed in late

00:02:32.34
Jenn
wow hmm

00:02:43.63
Aweis
late ninety

00:02:47.13
Don
Wow. And you mentioned that you didn't really meet another believer in person for a long time. Can you tell us about that?

00:02:59.50
Aweis
ah Yes, at the time, Somali Christians were and very few, especially in the city Mogadishu, where I lived.

00:03:11.05
Aweis
To be a Christian attracted a lot of persecution, therefore Somali Christians kept a low profile if you became a follower of Christ.

00:03:17.54
Jenn
Wow.

00:03:24.53
Aweis
and Even when we had a stable government in Somalia, you could lose your family, and your job, your kids, if you have any, could be removed from your home so they could be raised as a Muslim, and the government could detain you, and on rare occasions and you could lose your life.

00:03:49.97
Aweis
so the limited number of existing Somali Christians, especially in Mogadishu, kept a low profile. So when I became a believer in 1986,

00:03:59.43
Jenn
Wow.

00:04:02.99
Aweis
When I was 18, I tried to find other Christians in my area and I could not find any anyone. I remember asking the missionary in charge of the radio ministry in Nairobi, Kenya, I asked him, do you happen to know any Somali Christians in my area?

00:04:22.96
Aweis
So I could fellowship with them because I feel very lonely. And the missionary gave me a little bit of information, but not enough to locate any of the Christians.

00:04:33.11
Aweis
And the main reason he withheld that information from me is that he did not really know me well enough.

00:04:39.73
Jenn
Right.

00:04:40.91
Aweis
He just knew me through letter writing.

00:04:44.15
Jenn

00:04:45.29
Aweis
He never met me. No missionary ever met me. So I was like this kind of a ghost be believer that the radio ministry was helping.

00:04:51.88
Don
Yeah.

00:04:53.61
Jenn

00:04:54.09
Aweis
So out of abundance of caution to protect the lives of other believers and the missionary and his team decided not to introduce and Christians to me until they met me and knew who I was.

00:05:09.86
Jenn
Yeah.

00:05:09.93
Aweis
So it took me seven years and in 1993 when I could not take anymore and the loneliness was huge.

00:05:10.08
Jenn
Wow.

00:05:17.84
Aweis
I walked to a Christian mission organization and called it Swedish Charge Relief. Given the name and the lady who was in charge, her name is Annie Hellstrom, a lady who spoke my mother tongue really well, I deduced from these two things, the credibility and the integrity of the leader, the woman, and the name of the organization, that probably that was a Christian group that I could trust.

00:05:47.93
Jenn
Hmm.

00:05:47.95
Aweis
So I went to her one morning and I introduced myself to her. And I said, I'm a Somali Christian. do you happen to know any Somali Christian I could fellowship with?

00:05:59.31
Aweis
So Annie Hellstrom told me to wait. And then she went back to our office, walked to our office, and waited in the compound. And she was gone about 15, 20 minutes and then came back with a young man.

00:06:12.72
Aweis
and told me this is Liban, his name is Liban, he's also a Somali Christian.

00:06:18.82
Don
Wow.

00:06:19.31
Aweis
Actually I knew Liban not very well, but I really knew him, but I had no idea he was a follower of Christ.

00:06:20.09
Jenn
Wow. Wow.

00:06:27.79
Don
You already knew him.

00:06:29.04
Aweis
Oh yeah.

00:06:31.15
Don
Were you the same age and stage roughly? Were you students together?

00:06:33.39
Aweis
Yes, yes, we were both in our mid-20s. So Liban, my good friend, he became my good friend, would tell me later that when Annie Hellstrom left me and went back to our office, she knelt down and prayed and said, oh, Jesus, refill it to me.

00:06:52.94
Aweis
Is this man a genuine believer looking for a fellowship or is he a man trying to hum?

00:06:55.67
Jenn
Hmm.

00:07:00.08
Aweis
any Christian I introduced to him.

00:07:00.49
Jenn
Yeah.

00:07:02.28
Aweis
So she said, God, I will not introduce Liban to him until you make it very clear to me that he's safe.

00:07:03.09
Jenn
Wow.

00:07:10.73
Aweis
And she prayed and prayed.

00:07:11.66
Jenn
Hmm.

00:07:12.37
Aweis
And then she went to Liban and said to him, basically, I prayed. I prayed. And the Lord God revealed to me that this man is one of us. He's safe. You can meet him.

00:07:25.65
Don
Wow.

00:07:28.95
Don
Wow. There's so many things you want to ask about that.

00:07:32.46
Jenn
I know I'm just struck at God's faithfulness to you and also in this other man's life who also was most likely longing for fellowship and just struck at the personalness of God coming after us.

00:07:51.44
Jenn
Like as a young man, ways that God came after you and your heart was responsive And yeah, every time I hear a story like that, I think, God, you're so real and so worthy of our lives.

00:08:08.43
Don
And the way that this Swedish missionary, it sounds like, got on her knees and said, God, show me.

00:08:08.86
Jenn
So good.

00:08:15.35
Jenn
Yeah. Yeah.

00:08:17.79
Don
It's so hard to know in these situations, our own discernment's not enough.

00:08:20.40
Jenn
Yeah.

00:08:21.27
Don
We need the spirit.

00:08:22.06
Jenn
That's right.

00:08:23.63
Don
Beautiful.

00:08:24.08
Jenn
Yeah. Yeah.

00:08:25.33
Don
So after seven years of being alone, Tell us about those early years, your friendship with Liban and what happened, what God did after that.

00:08:33.13
Aweis
yes liban and i had a good discussion especially after he left work in the afternoon and Leban said to me, and with he said, there's no way that we are the only two believers in the capital.

00:08:51.92
Jenn
Wow. Yeah.

00:08:52.86
Aweis
There could be others who are lonely.

00:08:55.48
Don
But he didn't know any other either.

00:08:55.41
Aweis
And he also said, no. no

00:08:59.15
Don
Right. Exactly.

00:09:00.32
Jenn
Yeah.

00:09:00.45
Don
Yeah.

00:09:00.75
Aweis
i He didn't know any that were and and that he could trust, let me put it that way.

00:09:07.79
Jenn
yeah

00:09:08.53
Aweis
and because There's a good number of people who profess to be Christians and you don't see any Christ-like character in them.

00:09:08.72
Don
exactly

00:09:08.78
Jenn
yeah

00:09:19.23
Aweis
It's quite a struggle. He did not know any Christian he could trust to fellowship with, let me put it that way. So he said, I'm sure that there are Somali seekers, Muslims, who, if we witness to them, and would also follow Jesus.

00:09:35.48
Aweis
So he said, number one, let's meet together for a Bible study, two of us. Number two, let us look for a reliable Somali believers who could join us.

00:09:45.77
Aweis
And he said, number three, let us witness, testify to our Muslim friends, family, co-workers, so that we can and establish community.

00:09:55.34
Don
So I'm curious, was he already doing this or was meeting you giving him the courage to to start witnessing?

00:10:02.16
Aweis
I think meeting me and and our discussions it gave him that confidence. Liban told me, he said, before you came, i was like a bird with one wing.

00:10:12.53
Aweis
And when you came to me, the Lord God gave me my second wing. He said, no, I can't fly.

00:10:15.91
Jenn
I love that.

00:10:16.36
Don
All right. That's beautiful.

00:10:18.38
Jenn
Oh, what a precious gift to both of you.

00:10:21.98
Don
Wow.

00:10:22.16
Aweis
So we started our own Bible study group of two people. And the Lord added to our number.

00:10:26.76
Jenn
my goodness.

00:10:29.93
Aweis
and in less than a year we had 14 members one for and in mogadisho islamic somalia that is really mega church especially back then so we were happy

00:10:34.01
Jenn
Oh my goodness.

00:10:40.64
Jenn
course, yes.

00:10:43.73
Don
I'm curious, just the question on that. were were ah Were most of these new believers through your witness or were they believers you you found or a combination?

00:10:52.61
Aweis
most of them were new believers i think there were two or three who were not new believers but the rest were brand new.

00:10:59.61
Jenn
Hmm.

00:11:01.15
Don
Wow.

00:11:01.26
Aweis
and So when Liban and I became co-pastors, we knew nothing about pastoring. But it was like, if we don't do who will do it?

00:11:14.99
Don
Yes.

00:11:15.26
Jenn
That's right. Yeah.

00:11:16.05
Aweis
So we would meet, like two of us, just like at least two times a week to study.

00:11:21.98
Don
Okay.

00:11:21.87
Aweis
And then the following Friday, we met on Fridays, we would just teach. and what we learned the previous two days.

00:11:32.46
Don
Yes.

00:11:32.57
Jenn
Wow.

00:11:33.68
Aweis
So we were basically more like the blind and leading the blind, if you don't mind that that expression. But we had the Holy Spirit.

00:11:39.19
Don
the Holy Spirit.

00:11:40.40
Aweis
We had the Holy Spirit.

00:11:40.78
Jenn
That's right.

00:11:41.36
Aweis
We do that. um

00:11:43.02
Jenn
Yeah.

00:11:43.82
Aweis
So we had this, Liban and I had this kind of a ignorant-based arguments. Like I remember one time he said, today we have to do the Lord's table.

00:11:56.33
Aweis
We'll have the Lord's Supper. And he bought bread and, you know, vimto, you know, that grape drink, grape juice, red grape, no alcohol, of course. It's a Muslim context.

00:12:13.58
Don
Yes.

00:12:13.55
Aweis
So I told him, Liban, you can't do that. This bread is fermented.

00:12:18.51
Don
Yes.

00:12:19.34
Aweis
You told me that's the matter. So we are quite, quite a disagreement on that one. So yeah, we had our own discussions.

00:12:26.93
Jenn

00:12:27.81
Aweis
like we We were meeting in the living room of one of the believers. It was carpeted. It was a carpet, and we would sit on the carpet.

00:12:36.88
Don
yes

00:12:36.94
Aweis
And Liban would occasionally come in with his shoes on, and I would tell him, remove your shoes.

00:12:37.05
Jenn

00:12:43.41
Aweis
And I told him, accept us Moses and you know know holy place and all that stuff. So we had our own struggles for lack of knowledge. Yeah, but eventually, and

00:12:52.53
Jenn

00:12:54.80
Aweis
we we really We really grew spiritually, we learned more, and then of course, ah persecution, and physical persecution started.

00:13:06.80
Aweis
We have received the threats and our house church was exposed and to radical Islamists.

00:13:13.84
Jenn
Wow.

00:13:16.17
Aweis
A few times we had to stop meeting for like a few weeks until the dust settled down. And then we just come back after a while to continue our our house church.

00:13:29.20
Aweis
And one day, Leibann, one morning, Leibann was reporting to work in 1994. And he was shot and killed by two Muslim gunmen.

00:13:39.58
Jenn
Oh my goodness.

00:13:40.21
Aweis
I remember before Liban was killed, he came to my house to visit me and a couple of times before he was killed, shortly before he died. And he told me that he had this vision the previous night.

00:13:56.69
Aweis
And he said, I was in the house church preaching. And he said, you were all sitting down, you know, listening. And he said, this strange man came in with a handgun.

00:14:09.97
Aweis
and he said he pointed the gun he said at me and said to me i will either kill you the the leader and i will spare everyone else or i will spare everyone else and kill you and he said liban said he and he said i told him well spare my people and kill me and he said he raised the handgun heard the click and i dropped dead And then he added a waste. I know they will kill me, but you'll be safe. So when they take me out, continue leading the house church.

00:14:45.65
Aweis
So when Liban was killed, and we waited for a couple of weeks.

00:14:46.41
Jenn
always

00:14:49.84
Aweis
And we met again as a house church. I told them what Liban told me. And they accepted me as their sole leader, so to speak. They're the only pastor now.

00:15:01.10
Aweis
I had no co-pastor. But I appointed another believer in the house church. His name is Abukar Haret. And I told him, Aboukir, if they take me out, you will be leading the house church.

00:15:15.34
Aweis
and We had an interesting discussion actually before and we had this conversation. One of the believers asked, it and how do we know that we are being targeted as a house church and the killing will continue?

00:15:29.61
Aweis
Or if the killing of Liban was a random killing? we had no answer to that but one of the believers said let's just wait if they kill one of us in the next few weeks we will know we are being targeted and if no one is killed then we know it was just a random violence and you know we can continue worshiping and in less than a month another one was killed so we knew we were being targeted

00:15:54.68
Jenn
Wow.

00:15:57.93
Aweis
and eventually of the 14 members, 12 were killed. And Abu Qarharid and I were the only survivors of that massacre.

00:16:09.43
Jenn
Always.

00:16:10.32
Don
Was that in about a year or was that less than a year?

00:16:12.62
Aweis
It took a couple of years. and they Because they could not come to where we were meeting, the radical Islamists, they would just to wait until we were in an area where they felt safe to kill us so they could escape.

00:16:28.13
Aweis
And so the killings and took that long because they were hunting us down one by one.

00:16:34.88
Don
Were they all done with with guns or were they done another way?

00:16:37.68
Aweis
Yes, they were all killed with guns. Twelve were killed. In fact, one of the believers who was killed had a Muslim wife. His wife never converted.

00:16:48.56
Aweis
She was also killed together. But their two children escaped physical harm.

00:16:51.34
Jenn
Oh my goodness.

00:16:59.24
Jenn
I just feel that is, that sits so heavy and yet the the faith, you know, us sitting here today thinking of their faithfulness of the 12th to continue meeting no matter what and to follow Jesus is Yeah, <unk> it's beautiful, but it's also really humbling to hear that today.

00:17:28.17
Aweis
Yeah, you know, in the summer of 1996, I came to the other surviving house church member, A.H. And I suggested to him that we should leave Somalia and go to maybe Ethiopia or Kenya to so spiritually recuperate.

00:17:47.50
Aweis
Because we were both doing not well physically.

00:17:47.93
Jenn

00:17:49.89
Aweis
We wanted a fellowship.

00:17:50.54
Jenn
Of course.

00:17:52.62
Aweis
We wanted to start the world.

00:17:52.94
Jenn
Yeah.

00:17:54.54
Aweis
We wanted proper discipleship. None of us was ever properly discipled. physical or ingredient, especially I was the one who was suffering the most. I could not eat, I could not sleep, i lost so much weight. I was actually underweight. Insomnia kicked in, so i could not I was in a very pre precarious situation.

00:18:17.12
Don
Yes.

00:18:17.19
Jenn
Of course.

00:18:17.65
Aweis
So one morning when I visited B. and I suggested we should go either to Kenya or Ethiopia, two countries next door to Somalia, he told me a vision he had a few days earlier. He said, I wish I had this vision.

00:18:33.61
Aweis
And he said, I trust that my recollection of it is very accurate. He said, when the Muslims come and to kill us, they will not be able to see us.

00:18:44.11
Aweis
The Lord God would blind them, he said.

00:18:46.72
Jenn
Hmm.

00:18:47.60
Aweis
You could be standing right in front of them and they will not be able to see us. He said, this the vision I had. So you don't have to go anywhere. Just is stay because you are safe.

00:18:59.10
Jenn
Hmm.

00:19:00.46
Aweis
He was a man of great faith. He was. Now he died of what I think natural causes. That was the...

00:19:07.21
Jenn
Yeah.

00:19:08.33
Aweis
And who was the reason, but I believe he died in his mid 40s because of the persecution and the stress and to all on him.

00:19:13.74
Jenn
Hmm. Hmm.

00:19:19.31
Jenn
Yes, yeah.

00:19:21.77
Aweis
And so he died and some several years ago. But Abu Qarharad was a man of a great faith. So I told him, you can stay my brother, but I will go.

00:19:33.85
Aweis
I said, if I stayed here, i said, I believe in your vision. And I believe that the recollection is right on the money.

00:19:38.51
Jenn
Yeah.

00:19:41.07
Jenn
Yeah.

00:19:41.68
Aweis
But I said, I don't feel strong enough to stay. So I fled to Ethiopia, where I met a Somali Christian.

00:19:45.17
Jenn
Yeah.

00:19:49.65
Aweis
My second day there, I met that Somali Christian through a common friend. I joined a local church, I joined also Bible college in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia.

00:20:01.93
Aweis
And within a year, actually, whenever I had a break from the Bible college, I would travel to Magadishu, Somalia, to meet with my friend, Abu K.H., and together we traveled throughout southern Somalia. establishing house churches, organizing the Bible groups, you know fellowships.

00:20:22.54
Aweis
So many Somalis came to the Lord and we organized already existing Somali Christians into house churches.

00:20:27.12
Jenn
Thank you, Lord. Wow.

00:20:32.78
Aweis
and throughout our ministry time together from 1996 to 2001, we did not face any physical harm.

00:20:45.13
Aweis
I believe his vision, the vision he saw was correct. And even though Muslims tried to find us and harm us, the Lord God blinded them and you were invisible to them.

00:20:54.90
Jenn
Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.

00:20:57.74
Don
Was that true of all the people are coming to faith too? There was a period of protection on them?

00:21:03.84
Aweis
there was a period of protection depending on the geographical area and we had some believers who were shot and executed and we had one or two who were poisoned there were toppings and things like that but the vision that abuqar hared saw was about him and me as the only

00:21:27.45
Jenn
Mm hmm. Yeah.

00:21:28.64
Aweis
of the church, it did not extend to other and members in the community of faith.

00:21:32.29
Don
Right. Right. So were you in Ethiopia just a year or so it at the ETC, or did you go longer there?

00:21:43.47
Aweis
I came to Ethiopia in the summer of 1996 and I was in Bible College until I graduated in 2000. So these four years, I would travel to Mogadishu at least once a year, sometimes twice twice a year.

00:21:50.50
Don
Okay.

00:21:50.72
Jenn
Mm hmm.

00:21:57.61
Aweis
Each time I had a break from the Bible College, I would go to southern Somalia for ministry. And in 2001, I went to the US for seminary training where I spent four four and half years, almost five years in the US.

00:22:09.09
Jenn
Hmm.

00:22:14.54
Aweis
And then after graduating from a seminary, I went back to Somalia.

00:22:18.80
Don
And while you were there, you met your wife, is that right?

00:22:22.54
Aweis
Correct. My wife was already studying at the seminary. My wife is a missionary kid. And we got married and came back to Africa together. She grew up in southern Africa.

00:22:36.49
Don
And go ahead.

00:22:36.50
Jenn
I'm curious, ah can I ask a question?

00:22:38.38
Don
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:22:38.65
Jenn
Just a ways as a young man coming to Christ and then the the years that you've just shared, I'm curious, where is your family in this moment?

00:22:48.79
Jenn
Like as you're coming to the Lord, your father's a prominent man in the community. What happened to family?

00:22:57.77
Aweis
When I received my first Bible, the New Testament, from the SIM Radio Ministry, and I was so happy. I went to my dad and he came to visit us.

00:23:09.23
Aweis
My dad had two wives at the time. He was a Muslim cleric, not uncommon. So when he came, and

00:23:17.50
Jenn

00:23:19.60
Aweis
I said, hey, Abba, Dad, in my language, do you remember teaching me that the Christians and the Jews lost their Bible, the Torah, you the Psalms, the Injil, the New Testament?

00:23:31.60
Aweis
Do you remember teaching me that muslim Christians don't have a Bible anymore? He said, oh, sure. He said, lost a long time ago. I said, which is a strange thing, really smart, intelligent, irri educated Muslims believe that what do we call the Bible today is a new invention and what was there and during Jesus' time, the Old Testament, and shortly after that, the New Testament.

00:23:56.72
Aweis
So I said, oh, yeah, all gone, all lost. I said, i have a surprise for you. Here is the Injil, the New Testament. And if you're in Somali, if you're in Arabic, I could find you a copy.

00:24:05.12
Jenn
I love that.

00:24:08.65
Aweis
And i had I wanted to hand it. I attempted to hand the Bible to him. And boy, if he jumped back like I was giving him a fire or of something And he said, I don't want it.

00:24:22.31
Don
curse.

00:24:25.01
Aweis
And he said, i know I cannot stop you to read your Bible. But to become a Christian, i will be the one to take your life. And I knew that it was not ah an idle threat because in the Islamic culture, not uncommon.

00:24:39.85
Jenn
Right. Right.

00:24:41.55
Aweis
The concept of honor killing is still a lifeguard.

00:24:43.73
Jenn
Yeah.

00:24:45.26
Aweis
So if a family member brings shame on the family name, and the best way to eliminate the shame is to put them to death.

00:24:45.49
Jenn
Yeah.

00:24:51.05
Jenn
Right.

00:24:57.20
Aweis
So family members killing one another not uncommon. So I kept low profile and I kept studying, studying and reading. I'm a ferocious reader.

00:25:06.55
Don
Were you, were you living with your family at this time or were you living on?

00:25:10.56
Aweis
Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, yes, that's normal.

00:25:13.20
Don
But your father was coming and going to the other wife.

00:25:16.08
Aweis
Yes, yes. He had two wives, sometimes three wives, but at the time he had only two wives. So he would come like half the time and spend time with us, and then the other time he would be with the younger wife.

00:25:27.69
Jenn
Did he ever ask you again about this?

00:25:27.63
Aweis
And ah no, it's like it was like he chose to ignore.

00:25:35.21
Jenn
Okay.

00:25:35.41
Aweis
he was hiding even from other people that his son was reading the Bible.

00:25:38.64
Jenn
Yeah. Yeah.

00:25:40.46
Aweis
But before I became a follower of Christ, my father died at the age of 41.

00:25:45.06
Jenn
wow. Wow.

00:25:46.35
Aweis
So when I became a disciple of Christ, he was not there.

00:25:46.54
Don
Thank you.

00:25:49.65
Aweis
And so I went to my mom, i very a very good Muslim woman, and a loving, caring woman. She is today 87, alive and well. So I said to mom in 1986, I said to her, mom, I only want to be honest with you. I made my decision.

00:26:09.45
Aweis
She knew I had the Bible and reading and examining the scriptures. I said I made the decision to follow Jesus. And this is what it means to be a follower of Christ. And my mom was horrified because she has misconceptions about the Christian faith.

00:26:22.60
Don

‍
00:26:26.42
Aweis
She never met a Christian. She has never seen a Bible, but she knows some propaganda from Muslim preachers.

00:26:36.42
Jenn
Of course, yeah.

00:26:38.13
Aweis
So she said to me, because now you are a Christian, does that mean you will never love me and respect me as your mom?

00:26:46.100
Jenn
Hmm.

00:26:49.20
Aweis
m Because as a younger muslim i was as a Muslim young man, I was really an upright Christian. i Sorry, an upright Muslim. An upright Muslim.

00:27:00.20
Aweis
I was never a troublemaker. My mom was very proud of me. I was a righteous boy.

00:27:05.13
Jenn
Yeah.

00:27:06.29
Aweis
So she thought she would lose that son and I would become rebellious.

00:27:09.04
Jenn
Right. Right.

00:27:11.89
Aweis
But I told her that in the Bible, actually, parents are extremely important.

00:27:12.56
Jenn
Hmm.

00:27:18.42
Jenn
Hmm.

00:27:18.35
Aweis
And I said, as a Christian mom, I would love you and respect you even more than I did as a Muslim.

00:27:24.37
Jenn
Hmm.

00:27:25.87
Aweis
And because of her misconceptions of the Christian faith, she asked me if I would drink alcohol and eat pork. So I told her that you know that her concerns were not reasonable because in Somalia, there was nowhere to go to buy alcohol or pork.

00:27:44.53
Aweis
profile

00:27:47.37
Aweis
And then she asked me a few other and morality related questions.

00:27:51.82
Jenn
Yeah.

00:27:52.25
Aweis
I said, mom, I'll be upright as a Christian. I'll be a better boy.

00:27:54.56
Jenn
Wow.

00:27:56.05
Aweis
Believe me, you will see. And then she called my uncle, my dad's younger brother, the only uncle. And she said to him, my son is claiming to be a Christian. I want you to come and scare him back to Islam.

00:28:09.81
Aweis
My son is confused, she said. And he came, and he's really tall, strong man. When he came, instead of scaring me, actually tried to take my life.

00:28:20.77
Don
Wow.

00:28:20.81
Jenn
Yeah.

00:28:20.72
Aweis
And my mom intervened and said to him, stop it.

00:28:21.55
Jenn
Oh my goodness.

00:28:24.02
Aweis
I did not call you to kill him. I called you to scare him. Don't you know the difference? She said, I lost my so my husband few years ago, and I don't want to lose my son.

00:28:33.17
Don
I don't want to lose my son.

00:28:37.84
Aweis
So you can't leave. So he left.

00:28:41.28
Don
Wow.

00:28:41.42
Aweis
Fair enough.

00:28:41.61
Jenn
Wow.

00:28:42.48
Don
Somali women are very strong out here. I see.

00:28:45.80
Jenn
That's amazing. That's wow.

00:28:47.34
Aweis
They have to be. Yeah.

00:28:49.36
Jenn
Yeah.

00:28:50.45
Aweis
yeah

00:28:50.70
Don
Were you able to then stay in continual contact with your mother?

00:28:53.45
Aweis
Yeah, I was basically excommunicated. i had to leave home, wander around, leave my own, visit the family. But slowly and slowly, my family accepted me.

00:29:07.53
Aweis
They received me back.

00:29:07.94
Jenn
Hmm.

00:29:09.45
Aweis
I remember some of my cousins asking me, you are claiming to be a Christian, but you are really a good man. Could you explain that to us? That's my time to to testify to them that to be a follower of of Christ meant to be a good person, to be a righteous.

00:29:27.98
Aweis
So when their fear of corruption in me did not materialize, they accepted me back. So now I will say, actually, my uncle and I mended fences, and they were very close.

00:29:42.61
Aweis
We have a very good relationship.

00:29:43.18
Jenn
Hmm.

00:29:44.85
Aweis
and And I would say my birth family, my relatives, Muslims accept me maybe 80 to 90 percent, I would say, that much acceptance, which is a really good.

00:29:59.53
Aweis
And I was reminded a friend years ago that they would accept to me 100 percent when they too become followers of Christ.

00:30:13.69
Don
I was just going to ask, have any of them joined you in faith?

00:30:17.65
Aweis
well i think for security reasons i should not this i should not say this

00:30:25.02
Don
Okay. No talk further.

00:30:26.38
Jenn
Yes, absolutely.

00:30:27.54
Don
Understandable. Yes. So let's just jump ahead a little bit.

00:30:29.74
Jenn
a

00:30:32.40
Don
You ended up going to the States after getting a degree and in Addis. I visited the seminary just a few weeks ago. And then you went and did a ah master's degree at the Nazarene Seminary.

00:30:45.39
Aweis
yes

00:30:46.13
Don
You came back. So you came back connected to the Nazarene church in any way. You don't have to talk about that in detail, but you came back to continue working with your people your own people again.

00:30:57.100
Aweis
Yes, yes, because in 1996 when I came to Ethiopia, the Nazarenes received me, supported me, infested in me.

00:31:09.61
Aweis
The Nazarenes showed me love and compassion I have never seen in my entire life.

00:31:13.77
Jenn
Hmm.

00:31:14.88
Don
Yes.

00:31:17.73
Aweis
So I was very impressed with them. it ah is a church from the holiness tradition so that the missionary couple that received me and were really amazing and christ-like and so they sent me to bible college they sent him me to seminary in the us and then when i came back they put me to work so i was i they gave me the assignment to coordinate the work and the islamic ministry in the horn of africa

00:31:20.73
Jenn
Hmm.

00:31:49.26
Don
And you still have that role.

00:31:51.21
Aweis
Yes, yes, they still support me and and love me and stand behind me and I'm very grateful to them.

00:32:00.05
Jenn
Yeah,

00:32:00.99
Don
Now, I've had the privilege of visiting East Africa like 10 times the last 10 years and meeting Somalis every time I visit.

00:32:06.93
Aweis
Yeah, yeah.

00:32:09.09
Don
But most of our listeners don't really know much about the Somali Church. Can you just take a few minutes and just...

00:32:13.55
Jenn
that's good.

00:32:14.86
Don
describe a little bit what's going on what is god doing because the general reputation is somalis are very unchurched and unchristian and and the shabab is uh pretty violent what is god doing and then um

00:32:27.50
Jenn
Yeah.

00:32:31.28
Jenn
Yeah. It's

00:32:31.89
Don
What comes from that, and you come around to how you formed the the Somali Bible Society. I mean, that's quite an interesting thing. I thought, that's cool. I know there's a Moroccan Bible Society. And that was a courageous thing for Moroccan believers to form.

00:32:44.66
Don
So just tell us some of that. We've got some time here to hear about.

00:32:48.78
Jenn
and skin

00:32:49.45
Don
yeah

00:32:50.22
Aweis
yeah well the somali bible society uh established the the early days of of the COVID-19, when we had plenty of time staying home, not traveling. and The community of faith, some key leaders came together and said, hey, the Somali church is growing, and we need to have our own Bible society.

00:33:18.95
Aweis
And we need to write our own literature, translate our Bible. And the Somali church, according to Joshua Project, a mission organization based in the U.S., according to also Operation Weld, the Somali church is now it's the second fastest growing church in the world.

00:33:40.07
Aweis
was number three.

00:33:41.61
Don
After the Iranians.

00:33:43.18
Aweis
after the iranians yeah iranian chart is growing close to 20 a year which is a lot and the somali chart is growing 8.1 percent annually the global church growth is 2.9 so the somali chart growing at the rate of 8.1 annually is to way above the global yes yeah

00:33:45.83
Jenn
amazing.

00:34:06.80
Don
Four times the global average.

00:34:09.01
Jenn
Thank you, Lord. Yeah.

00:34:10.16
Aweis
And so we see so many Somali Muslims becoming followers of Christ. In fact, the Somali Bible Society is started the translation of the New Testament.

00:34:23.44
Aweis
In fact, we inherited the Bible translation from a previous work in which I was involved. and Many years ago, the Somali Christian group, in which I was one of the members, started the translation of the New Testament.

00:34:40.25
Aweis
So when the Somali Bible Society was established, it was then the translation was brought under and the Somali Bible Society. And then now that translation is completed by God's grace as the New Testament.

00:34:53.90
Don
The whole Bible or just the New Testament? Okay.

00:34:57.82
Aweis
And the South Korean Bible Society is helping us to print it and in South Korea.

00:35:07.63
Jenn
Wow.

00:35:08.31
Aweis
They're covering all the expenses, and they will ship that the copies of the Bible to the Horn of Africa, and they are paying for everything.

00:35:11.16
Jenn
Wow. Thank you, Lord.

00:35:17.52
Aweis
So we're very grateful to our brothers and sisters in South Korea.

00:35:21.42
Jenn
Thank you, Lord. Yes.

00:35:22.38
Don
Exactly.

00:35:22.41
Aweis
And very soon we will start the translation of the Old Testament. and the lord willing We are now in the middle of doing some fundraising for that work.

00:35:26.78
Jenn
Hmm.

00:35:31.49
Aweis
and The Somali Bible Society and connects and almost all the key and Somali ministries globally.

00:35:40.68
Jenn
Hmm.

00:35:41.39
Aweis
And we have and a number of expatriate mission organizations and who are working with us. So it's a huge network.

00:35:52.84
Don
Yeah.

00:35:52.94
Aweis
Last year, we came together and and we we we formalized a vision to facilitate the coming of the lord ah coming to the Lord of a quarter of a million adult Somali Muslims to the Lord in the next nine years.

00:35:54.04
Jenn
Hmm.

00:36:11.15
Aweis
last year we said 10 years already one year is gone and we met our the numbers and we of the muslims who came to the lord and in fact more people came to the lord last year than we expected and now we have nine more years our plan is to train and to train 500 evangelists

00:36:26.41
Don
Wow.

00:36:26.100
Jenn
Thank you, Lord.

00:36:32.69
Aweis
and each evangelist tool will train 10 evangelists that will give us 5000 evangelists so we have 5000 evangelists if each evangelist says say leads 50 muslims to the lord you have a quarter of a million adult somali believers

00:36:52.83
Jenn
That's amazing. Yes.

00:36:53.71
Aweis
And I think after the kind of of ah when we switch that time up in the next nine years, and we're saying like, say, and quarter of a million adult Somali believers.

00:37:06.32
Aweis
But if a husband and wife come to the Lord and they have four or five kids, they will raise their kids in the faith.

00:37:07.12
Jenn
Yes.

00:37:12.21
Jenn
Yes, yes.

00:37:12.40
Aweis
If you count the children, we could be hitting a million Somali believers in the next nine years.

00:37:16.53
Jenn
Yeah, so good.

00:37:18.36
Don
Praise God.

00:37:20.33
Jenn
Always, could you tell us just, you know, what is God doing among the young in Somalia? Like, yeah.

00:37:28.59
Aweis
yeah

00:37:29.49
Don
mean? there Teenagers?

00:37:30.38
Jenn
Yeah.

00:37:31.05
Don
Yeah.

00:37:31.41
Jenn
Yeah, just however you qualify the young.

00:37:35.57
Aweis
The Somali church is actually a very young church. I would say the average age probably is under 30.

00:37:44.17
Jenn
Okay.

00:37:44.24
Aweis
the open and So people who come to the Lord are usually teenagers and in their mid-20s.

00:37:51.57
Jenn
Okay.

00:37:52.27
Don
Okay.

00:37:52.20
Aweis
That's a group that comes to the Lord the most. I believe the main reason is that they can read and write. The literacy rate among Somali people is very low.

00:38:05.04
Jenn
Okay.

00:38:04.94
Aweis
So yeah it's a younger generation that can read and write. They are tech savvy.

00:38:09.04
Jenn
I see. Yeah.

00:38:12.11
Aweis
So they can go on the internet and and listen and and they can listen well. They have at least a basic education. So it is these young people, both men and women, who form the core of the Somali church.

00:38:28.61
Jenn
Okay.

00:38:29.42
Aweis
And when persecution comes, and which it does always, and

00:38:33.81
Jenn
Yeah.

00:38:34.93
Aweis
And when their lives in danger, younger people with no, say, big responsibility, like a job or a spouse or children, they can move from place to place, you know, from Jerusalem to today and Samaria, you know, they can go to different cities.

00:38:46.61
Jenn
Yeah. Yeah.

00:38:51.28
Aweis
And that's what to witness and when Somali Muslims come to the Lord during the discipleship phase.

00:38:53.95
Jenn
Mmm.

00:39:00.28
Aweis
We make it very clear to them that to be a follower of Christ is to be persecuted.

00:39:07.40
Jenn
Mmm.

00:39:08.30
Aweis
I like that my favorite passage is 2 Timothy 3.12, where it says, in fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.

00:39:17.54
Jenn
Life.

00:39:20.56
Aweis
So if it's it it's not if you will be persecuted as long as you live a godly life, you will be persecuted.

00:39:20.82
Jenn
Mmm.

00:39:25.74
Jenn
Yeah.

00:39:29.43
Jenn
Hmm.

00:39:30.29
Aweis
So we tell them, live a godly life. You will be persecuted.

00:39:33.23
Jenn
Hmm.

00:39:34.64
Aweis
And when you are persecuted, just to make sure that you are persecuted because of your Christ-likeness, not because of some foolish mistakes.

00:39:42.27
Jenn
Hmm.

00:39:44.64
Aweis
So when when persecution happens, and I mean physical persecution happens, they expect it They understand it.

00:39:45.42
Jenn
It's so good.

00:39:50.41
Jenn
Yeah. Hmm.

00:39:53.23
Aweis
in and In the church tradition, we have two types of persecution. White persecution. There's no blood involved, you know, psychological, emotional, it's economic. You have the red persecution where the shedding of blood is manifest.

00:40:10.01
Don
Bye.

00:40:14.13
Jenn
Wow.

00:40:14.06
Aweis
So where white persecution happens all the time and red persecution happens quite often.

00:40:18.33
Jenn
Right.

00:40:21.52
Aweis
And we we have a network of of safe houses throughout the whole of Africa.

00:40:21.63
Jenn
Okay.

00:40:27.69
Jenn
Okay. Yeah.

00:40:28.98
Aweis
Not enough by any means, but we have we have the basics covered.

00:40:31.25
Jenn
Yeah.

00:40:34.38
Aweis
So if a Somali Christian family is persecuted in one village or town, then we

00:40:39.79
Jenn
Yeah.

00:40:40.40
Aweis
make travel easy for them so that they can flee to a house church where they can stay as long as necessary usually not more than three or four months and then they'll they will receive discipleship they will receive training they will read they'll worship and when they feel safe back to where they came from, then they will go back stronger, bolder in their faith.

00:41:02.29
Jenn
Yeah, that's so good.

00:41:04.59
Aweis
We have a Bible study and system that's online based. and Internet is very easily available in the Horn of Africa among Somali people.

00:41:14.55
Jenn
Okay.

00:41:17.41
Aweis
It's affordable. Smartphones are very affordable, you know secondhand from China, all over Somalia today. And we, for example, one missionary one time asked me, how could a typical Somali you know afford a smartphone?

00:41:37.90
Aweis
And I told him, it takes 20 chickens or maybe 40, 50 eggs. And that's basically it. It may last you not more than two or three years, but it really works.

00:41:49.87
Aweis
So every Somali believer has access to a smartphone. um

00:41:56.09
Jenn
Yeah.

00:41:56.01
Aweis
And then they can go online and they can read. And we have a website to upload all the materials.

00:42:00.49
Jenn
So good, the access. Yeah.

00:42:05.04
Aweis
We have a safe social media networks where they can call one another to ask questions. And we are there.

00:42:13.95
Don
The big challenge is the discipleship of these believers.

00:42:20.60
Aweis
Yeah.

00:42:27.63
Aweis
Yes.

00:42:28.18
Don
It sounds like this network of online studies is an effort in that direction, but I think we would all say that there needs to be in-person you know discipleship where you can put your arm around the person and pray for them. Is that happening too, or how is that going? and how How is it developing?

00:42:48.46
Aweis
face-to-face discipleship is very limited number one is finances travel takes money number two is security you have to be very careful you don't expose these underground believers

00:42:56.65
Jenn
Yeah.

00:42:57.37
Don
Yeah.

00:43:05.36
Aweis
and number number number three I think now it's three these believers live in a very volatile areas.

00:43:18.64
Aweis
So we send the materials to them and they read and then we and then we can go online and we can see them. We can have conversation with them like we're doing now.

00:43:30.84
Don
I use WhatsApp a lot, I think.

00:43:32.85
Jenn
Yeah.

00:43:33.09
Aweis
It's not the best, but the second to best like

00:43:36.50
Jenn
Yeah, for sure.

00:43:38.54
Aweis
with In the Somali context, we never say we can't do that because we don't have enough money or we ah there's no security. These things don't stop us.

00:43:49.45
Don
Right.

00:43:49.36
Aweis
And the main thing is we always find a way.

00:43:49.58
Jenn
yeah Amen.

00:43:52.69
Aweis
And where there's a will, there's a way.

00:43:55.40
Jenn
ha ha.

00:43:55.66
Aweis
We don't have big, we don't have church buildings in Somalia, yet we meet.

00:44:00.40
Jenn
Yeah.

00:44:01.14
Aweis
How do we do that? We meet in living rooms. We have house churches. They don't cost us any extra money.

00:44:05.100
Jenn
So good. Right.

00:44:08.90
Aweis
And we even have Bible schools, which are underground. And people are studying.

00:44:13.40
Don
Yeah.

00:44:15.37
Aweis
So it's not the best, but it's the second best, and it works for us, the online trainings and fellowships.

00:44:20.93
Jenn
Oh, yeah.

00:44:25.90
Jenn
Wow, I'm so encouraged just hearing, and I hope that all the listeners who are hearing this are also encouraged at what God is doing and stirred in my spirit to pray for our brothers and sisters. So yeah, a word to our listeners, you know pray for the Somali Church and just rejoice that the church is growing.

00:44:48.97
Jenn
Pray for families to come to Christ as we heard our brothers say. So thank you for sharing that. Such a good word.

00:44:55.37
Aweis
One thing I would like to add about the growth is, in fact, we see growth where the church is persecuted the most. According to Open and Doors, the Somali church is the second most persecuted church in the world.

00:45:03.31
Jenn
Yeah.

00:45:11.47
Aweis
Always North Korea is number one, North Korea.

00:45:14.32
Jenn
Yeah.

00:45:14.80
Aweis
And then over the years, it's either Somalia or Afghanistan, which is number two. So in 2025 report of open doors, Somalia was the second most persecuted church in the world.

00:45:26.54
Jenn
Wow.

00:45:26.48
Aweis
But we are growing. I'm reminded by Tertullian's statement that the blood of the murder is the church.

00:45:28.88
Jenn
Thank you, Jesus.

00:45:33.55
Jenn
Yes.

00:45:34.66
Aweis
Like in Somalia, we have Somalia in the south, which used to be Italian colony.

00:45:35.50
Jenn
Yes.

00:45:39.48
Aweis
And then we have Somaliland in the north that was British colony.

00:45:45.37
Aweis
Red persecution is very common. It's actually the norm in the south where believers are killed right and left.

00:45:50.78
Jenn
Wow.

00:45:54.54
Aweis
But the growth is Unbelievable. We have well over 170,000 Somali Christians in southern Somalia.

00:45:58.45
Jenn
Thank you, Jesus.

00:46:06.70
Aweis
And children. about seventy five percent of them are under the age of fifteen so you see these are children

00:46:15.76
Jenn
Oh my goodness.

00:46:16.65
Aweis
whereby in Somaliland, where no Somali Christian was ever killed, as far as we can tell, the growth is much lower, and there are only like less than 8,000 Somali Christians and in the south, in the north Somaliland.

00:46:18.68
Jenn
Wow.

00:46:30.30
Jenn
Hmm.

00:46:33.29
Aweis
So where the Christians experience regular killings, we have 107 to This is based a census by the Somali Bible Society, a census that was released in December

00:46:34.11
Jenn
Wow.

00:46:36.93
Jenn
Wow.

00:46:50.72
Jenn
Wow.

00:46:50.99
Aweis
so why is the chart growing in the south where there's intense persecution and killings and in the north where persecution is limited to white persecution there must be something in persecution which purifies the church so the growth of the church is immense

00:47:08.24
Jenn
Yeah.

00:47:13.17
Don
So I'm curious. I've done a lot of thinking and talked to a lot of people in different persecution contexts.

00:47:24.81
Don
And sometimes persecution destroys the church because it wipes out all the believers and it's and everyone else is too afraid. In other contexts, it's like what you're experiencing where the persecution drives them to be stronger.

00:47:41.58
Don
I know you did advanced in-depth study on the effect of the persecution on the Somali church. Can you say a little more on what do you think is going on here?

00:47:53.01
Aweis
Well, my based on my research, and I knew this before my PhD research, and my PhD thesis examined the relationship bi between persecution and judge growth in the Somali context.

00:48:08.81
Aweis
I think what you're referring to is the North African experience in which the church is very small now.

00:48:19.53
Aweis
And why that happened is a long story. However, i make distinction between persecution and genocide and the church has no history of forget about thriving has no history of of surviving when there's a genocide but the church has a long history of thriving in the midst of persecution in persecution the persecutors do not try to kill everyone they only kill not more than 10 the population

00:48:28.59
Don
Yeah. 100%.

00:48:42.70
Jenn
Hmm.

00:48:53.97
Aweis
once they kill more than half more than 50 percent then that's when it goes to genocide so in the somalia context we have never witnessed a genocide just normal biblical persecution and that's why the growth is very significant

00:49:04.95
Don

00:49:11.44
Aweis
when i did my When I was interviewing Muslims and for my PhD thesis, I spoke to a good number of them, including some Muslim clerics. asked of them, if a Somali became somala Muslim becomes a Christian, what would happen to them?

00:49:29.20
Aweis
And without any disagreement, they all said, oh, they should be put to death because Mohammed said, you know kill every Muslim who leaves Islam, you know, men by Dalai Dinofaktou who kill when they leave Islam.

00:49:44.88
Aweis
And I asked them, why do you kill them? And they said, to discourage more Somali Muslims becoming Christians. And I asked them all, so when you kill one or two of these people, does that work?

00:50:00.59
Aweis
Do you get less Christians or more? And all of them said, oh, the more we kill, the more they increase. And I asked them, then why don't you stop killing? And they said, to stop the killings would be to disagree, to disobey our prophet. We have to kill them, even though we know they will keep growing.

00:50:22.04
Don
Wow. Wow.

00:50:23.31
Aweis
Yeah.

00:50:25.10
Don
ah It's funny, but it's tragic.

00:50:26.87
Jenn

00:50:28.40
Don
And I don't know, in your ministry and the network you're working with,

00:50:29.36
Jenn
yeah

00:50:35.57
Don
so many of these believers are experiencing what you experienced when you were a new believer and having your friends killed. Do you have some kind of counseling ministry or support to help with inner healing after these people have seen their brothers in the faith murdered in front of their eyes?

00:50:55.79
Don
How does this work? I mean, how is God showing up in the such situations of tragedy?

00:51:03.15
Aweis
So the Somali church, I would say, arguably arguably the most traumatized church right now.

00:51:09.38
Don
Yeah.

00:51:11.12
Jenn
Yeah, yeah.

00:51:12.01
Aweis
I don't know much about the church in North Korea. um

00:51:15.16
Don
In North Nigeria, it's very similar, but go ahead.

00:51:18.67
Jenn
Yeah.

00:51:18.76
Don
Yeah.

00:51:19.36
Aweis
But at least in Nigeria, they have a Christian region where the Christians are safe in the south, where the Christians are are persecuted.

00:51:23.05
Don
Yes. Yes, they can go there.

00:51:25.59
Jenn
Yeah.

00:51:27.53
Aweis
It's usually the south, and the Muslim and regions. So in Somalia, like we don't have a Christian region where we could flee to like the Nigerians can.

00:51:34.57
Jenn
Yeah.

00:51:37.90
Aweis
So the Somalia...

00:51:38.41
Don
Except out of the country, yeah.

00:51:40.30
Aweis
Yes, out of the country, and then you don't want to take the entire church out of the country.

00:51:43.37
Jenn
Where do you go? right

00:51:44.92
Don
Yeah, exactly.

00:51:45.04
Aweis
and So and the Somali church is traumatized. So the Somali Bible Society actually has a beautiful ministry called Trauma Healing.

00:51:58.83
Aweis
So we raise funding for this ministry. So we find and several times a year we bring people together. people of the same trauma level, you know not not more than 20, usually 10 to 15 people. And then we find the professionals, m good Christians, including a pastor, medical person, psychologists, counselors, people who are trained.

00:52:26.51
Don
Yes.

00:52:26.55
Aweis
And we give them like two weeks, sometimes three weeks to talk to them, to listen to them. And that trauma healing has really helped the Somali community of faith and a great deal.

00:52:41.90
Aweis
And so we have that trauma healing. And when almost every one of them is traumatized, you can imagine how much time sources that can take.

00:52:49.61
Jenn
Oh my goodness. Absolutely. Yeah.

00:52:53.10
Aweis
But we take trauma healing very seriously.

00:52:56.23
Don
Amen.

00:52:56.29
Jenn
It's good.

00:52:56.69
Aweis
despite the trauma the somali church is strong the somali church fruitful the somali church is christ-like and the more they're persecuted the more they grow

00:53:06.48
Jenn
Thank you, Jesus.

00:53:13.84
Jenn
Oasis, what encouragement do you have to these young young believers who, like you, you know as a young man, the Lord brought you to himself in those seven years of waiting and praying for another believer?

00:53:30.09
Jenn
Yeah, what is your what's your encouragement to Somali young believers? And then also, I just would love to hear your encouragement to just the young, to Gen Z across the world, believers.

00:53:46.61
Aweis
The best life to live is a Christ-like life.

00:53:52.75
Jenn
Hmm.

00:53:53.29
Aweis
No price is too high to pay to be a disciple of Christ. When we are Christ-like, when we follow Christ, we will be threatened.

00:54:01.61
Jenn
It's so good.

00:54:08.01
Aweis
We will be persecuted, whether it's white persecution in the West, usually, or red persecution in the Muslim world.

00:54:10.14
Jenn
Mm.

00:54:16.53
Aweis
We will be persecuted. But persecution is part of the Christian gospel. If people make fun of you, if they tease you, call you names, despise you, or even take your life,

00:54:30.81
Aweis
There's nothing better to be in the company of Jesus and its disciples. They were all persecuted.

00:54:35.25
Jenn
Thank you, Jesus. Yeah.

00:54:36.65
Aweis
Christ to Jesus was crucified. They called him names. We are not in this world to be safe, to be comfortable.

00:54:47.50
Aweis
We are in this world to to to be Christ-like, to be salt and light. And if we are afraid of name-calling or losing our job in in some cultures or even losing our life, and we cannot be a salt and light.

00:55:05.39
Aweis
The life that people who don't believe in Christ live is not worth living.

00:55:06.03
Jenn
Yeah.

00:55:12.56
Jenn
Yeah.

00:55:12.62
Aweis
it <unk> just It's just a fake life. The joy, the commitment, the compassion, the care that the Christ-like person portrays is immense.

00:55:27.59
Aweis
So the idea that persecution must be eliminated, must be removed, is unchristian. We should be loving, we should be caring, yet committed to Christ.

00:55:45.49
Aweis
That is my message to the young people. We have everything to gain and nothing of value to lose when we follow Christ, whether you are in the West or whether you are in the global South.
The ministry of the Somali church is growing and the Somali Bible Society is arguably the most and impactful ministry among Somali people because of the network system we have.

00:57:05.65
Jenn
Mm hmm.

00:57:14.71
Jenn
Mm hmm. Mm

00:57:17.79
Aweis
And we established a university called An-Nour University.

00:57:21.61
Jenn
hmm.

00:57:23.76
Aweis
And we have a graduate degrees as a Christian union university where we prepare the people, equip them to witness to Muslims. So we have a graduate degrees in Islamic studies, in apologetics and chart history.

00:57:41.29
Aweis
We have a doctoral level studies, a PhD also in Islamic studies and apologetics, some polemics, and judge history. So we are expecting accreditation and by the end of the year, maybe sometime next year.

00:57:58.57
Aweis
And that is now a university as a Bible society. We want not only to equip the Somali people, or Africans, but globally because it's an online university.

00:58:12.01
Aweis
So we want every Christian who wants to reach out to Muslims but don't know how, want to give them an opportunity.

00:58:24.11
Aweis
We also have a school of languages where we teach a biblical Greek and biblical Hebrew diploma level. And so as a Bible society, we are committed to equip the Christian community globally to position them to share their faith with Muslims in an effective and impactful way.

00:58:46.14
Don
Amen.

00:58:46.96
Jenn
So good. Thank you.

00:58:50.61
Don
Let me ask the question, and if it's not really possible to answer, we can cut this out later. but

00:58:58.45
Don
I was just thinking of my friend and retired colleague, Joy Lohan. We talked about her. When she grew up in Somalia and her parents, her mother, did the first translation of the Bible, she was so traumatized as a young child, seeing her father.

00:59:11.56
Aweis

00:59:17.55
Don
They tried to kill him many times, several times, almost killed him.

00:59:19.86
Jenn
Hmm. Hmm.

00:59:23.12
Don
I guess what's it like for your kids knowing your their dad's constantly getting death threats? How did they not know that?

00:59:29.100
Aweis
and yeah yeah and My kids know, not all, but they know the intense persecution and threats I face.

00:59:30.89
Don
okay

00:59:39.76
Aweis
Recently, two months ago, i translated of the threats I received into English. They are all in Somalia. And I showed to my first born son, who's 20, and he said, oh, my.

00:59:56.05
Aweis
you know And I said, do you think I should share this with the kids? He said, no, don't do that. is OK, so I tried to shield my kids from what we're facing.

01:00:06.94
Don
Yes.

01:00:10.64
Aweis
But, you know, they have a general idea of what it means to be a follower of Christ.

01:00:21.07
Aweis
And you talked about Joy, her dad, Ward and Modricer. I came to the Lord through a ministry he established in 1973.

01:00:33.26
Aweis
The radio ministry that led me to the Lord in 1986 was established by her dad in 1973.

01:00:35.02
Don
it

01:00:40.11
Don
Yes. Wow. Yes.

01:00:41.38
Aweis
I never met her dad and her mom.

01:00:41.82
Don
Yes.

01:00:41.92
Jenn
hmm

01:00:42.16
Don
Yeah.

01:00:43.66
Aweis
They're very well now in the Somali church. They are like our apostle Paul, okay? Both of them. So I think it was... three years ago that I went to Florida to visit their resting place.

01:00:58.34
Aweis
And I was very happy to see where they were resting. And I thanked them for their ministry. And I laid a flower there and then left.

01:01:09.33
Don
you You sent me a video of that and I was talking to Joy after that, to Joy Lo and their daughter.

01:01:14.45
Aweis
Yes.

01:01:15.41
Don
And she said she was very, very touched when you sent that video to her several years ago when you did that.

01:01:15.79
Aweis
Yes.

01:01:18.48
Aweis
Yeah.

01:01:20.94
Aweis
Yes, yes, yes.

01:01:23.09
Don
very moving, but God had to, for joy, God took away her fear and hatred for Muslims and given her entire life of loving Muslims.

01:01:33.74
Don
And she's seen so many Muslims come to faith in Canada and in Pakistan.

01:01:36.62
Aweis
Yes. and

01:01:39.08
Don
Um, so that heritage continues. So, yeah, yeah.

01:01:42.29
Aweis
Absolutely, absolutely.

01:01:44.89
Don
Well, thank you for this time. It's been a a lovely conversation.

01:01:48.91
Jenn
Thank you.

01:01:49.77
Don
May God bless you.

01:01:51.47
Jenn
Yeah.

01:01:51.82
Don
look forward to seeing you and maybe in a week or less.

01:01:56.54
Jenn
Mm.

01:01:56.85
Don
So yes, God bless. Thank you so much. Any final or comments, Jed?

01:02:01.30
Aweis
Thank

01:02:03.02
Jenn
No, just was so blessed by our conversation and the Lord. Yeah, I think we live as we are living now. we just work we have life right in front of us, so we will live forever.

01:02:19.12
Jenn
as we have breath today and we cannot wait to see the Lord face to face. And I hear that. I see that in your life and your story and in the many, many whom you represent, beautiful brothers and sisters. So there's this like this longing for heaven. i think that stirs in me.

01:02:37.56
Jenn
Cannot wait to hear the stories when we get to see our Lord face to face. So thank you for your faithfulness and we'll be praying for your family as well.

01:02:48.72
Aweis
Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you for the ministry. And this broadcast may our Heavenly Father use it in a very mighty way.

01:02:57.94
Jenn
Amen.

01:02:58.93
Aweis
Not only for the believers, but also for the seekers that when they listen, and they will say, wow, we need to follow Jesus.

01:03:02.16
Jenn
Yes. Yeah. Yeah, so good.

01:03:09.22
Don
God bless.

01:03:10.32
Jenn
Thank you.

01:03:10.34
Aweis
God bless.

‍