A Nigerian Cross-Centered Response to Islamic Violence

00:00:26.83
Jenn Chen
Well, welcome to the Reflexio podcast, Utena. Thank you so much for being with us today. We are excited to hear about your story, excited to hear about the things that you have learned, and just excited to just be part of your journey.

00:00:43.100
Jenn Chen
So thank you for being with us.

00:00:46.37
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Thank you for having me.

00:00:49.01
Jenn Chen
I am curious as we begin, if you can just tell us a little bit about yourself and yeah, what brought you to this moment?

00:00:54.47
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Okay. Okay. All right. Thank you. My name is Uchen Nadi Anyawo, and I'm the first of 10 children, ah but I lost my parents. We lost our two younger ones while they were infants.

00:01:14.08
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
My father was an Anglican church teacher. and He was not ordained a priest, but he was a teacher and he retired in 1997.

00:01:25.52
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
My father lived up to little bit about 100 years.

00:01:30.45
Don
Wow.

00:01:31.66
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So as a child, i i grew up in the Anglican family.

00:01:32.70
Don
Good blood.

00:01:39.19
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
My mom taught me to read the Bible

00:01:42.79
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

00:01:43.06
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
in Igbo language from age six. And I grew up learning about scriptures and all that, but I didn't really have a personal relationship with Jesus until my freshman year in college when the gospel was explained to me and I opened my heart and invited Jesus into my life and that changed everything.

00:02:12.63
Jenn Chen
Amen.

00:02:13.86
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
and One of the key things that led me to Christ was I was afraid of death because I always ask the question, why why is it that when people are born, we rejoice?

00:02:20.15
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

00:02:28.07
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
And when people die, we mourn, we cry, we weep.

00:02:31.84
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

00:02:32.25
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
That question, you know, tormented me for years, I should say. But in college, freshman year, um I had the gospel explained to me and I asked Christ to come into my heart and the fear of death ended.

00:02:50.27
Jenn Chen
Wow.

00:02:53.35
Jenn Chen
Wow.

00:02:54.40
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
It was so, I had joy. The joy of salvation was so much. I remember I was preparing for my first semester exam. The joy was so much. I went to the soccer pitch of my college at night, just worshiping the Lord.

00:03:10.94
Jenn Chen
and

00:03:11.13
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
And I said, Lord, I'm now ready to die. In fact, take me home.

00:03:16.01
Jenn Chen
wow

00:03:16.13
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
What? What gave that assurance was I was very sure, you know, what we call the assurance of salvation, that if I drop dead now, I'm going to spend eternity with God.

00:03:28.42
Jenn Chen
Hmm. Hmm.

00:03:29.01
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
The fear of death just left. And as I began to grow in Christ's discipleship, I now stumbled on a lot of scriptures like Hebrews chapter two, where the Bible tells us that Jesus partook in our flesh and through his death, he destroyed the one who had power over death.

00:03:51.25
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
That is the devil.

00:03:51.56
Jenn Chen
e

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Uchenna D. Anyanwu
And I read so so such scriptures and many other scriptures where had Jesus said, do not fear him who has power only to kill the body and after that can do no more.

00:04:05.08
Jenn Chen
Mm-hmm.

00:04:05.31
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
I tell you who you should fear, the one who has power to both kill the body and also throw the soul into hell.

00:04:14.03
Jenn Chen
Mm-hmm.

00:04:14.39
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So the assurance was so clear that I felt now I can die. Well, God didn't take me home.

00:04:26.05
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
He said, no, I still have some work for you.

00:04:28.22
Jenn Chen
Mm-hmm.

00:04:29.11
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So I was studying building engineering. My initial ambition was to become a university professor or a contractor teaching construction engineering.

00:04:43.05
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So but when I received Christ, that changed everything.

00:04:46.42
Don
Praise

00:04:46.61
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
not And it was through the ministry of the Christian Union, the Nigerian Fellowship of Evangelical Students.

00:04:53.71
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

00:04:54.41
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Not long after that, I attended the Zonal East Art Conference, and there I was filled with the Holy Spirit.

00:05:02.82
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

00:05:03.05
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
when I was filled with the Holy Spirit, the hunger for God's word increased. I started reading the scriptures, devouring the scriptures. I was reading the Bible every morning.

00:05:13.61
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
And when I read it to come alive to me, they were no longer stories of David or or people in the old Testament or Paul or Peter.

00:05:19.60
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

00:05:23.84
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
They were now stories that were brought alive to me, you know,

00:05:24.01
Don
you

00:05:29.91
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
And the understanding was in my own context how God was making that ah that those words are alive for me in my context. So I began to pray and ask God, okay, what do you want me to do now?

00:05:46.57
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
And i began to sense that the Lord will have me preach the gospel. This was in 1983. This was 1983. That was my freshman year.

00:05:59.39
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
And so I began to conceive how I was going to do it. I said, well, ah because I'm the first son, my parents are poor. i In our culture, they train you to help, for you to help the family.

00:06:15.97
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So I said to myself, i I'm going to study.

00:06:15.97
Jenn Chen
Wow.

00:06:20.26
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
um get a PhD in engineering, become a university professor. Then I'm going to support my my my parents and my siblings. Then during weekends, I'll be going to the villages to preach the gospel.

00:06:34.28
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
That was my bargain with God.

00:06:34.32
Jenn Chen
wow

00:06:37.93
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
But when I finished my university education, Well, before finished, the Lord had already spoken to me that I'm going to cross culture, learn languages, and proclaim Jesus where his name has not been proclaimed.

00:06:47.25
Jenn Chen
Wow.

00:06:53.78
Don
Thank you.

00:06:53.92
Jenn Chen
Wow.

00:06:54.25
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
There were verses that were very capital for for me. The first was in Romans chapter 15, verse 20, where Paul said, I make it my ambition to preach Christ in regions unknown.

00:07:07.54
Jenn Chen
me

00:07:07.87
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Then on another passage was Genesis 12, when the Lord called Abraham and said, leave your country, your kindred, and go to a land that will show you. you know and Those scriptures came during my junior year in university at Amadoubelo University, Zaria.

00:07:26.86
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
That was where I was. And I started journaling, recording what the Lord was saying to me. i was still bargaining with God.

00:07:35.01
Don
Right.

00:07:36.52
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
I said, no, God, I can still be a university professor and go and preach the gospel. you know So in Nigeria, after your university education or your college get education, on your first one year, you spend it to serve the nation.

00:07:52.72
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

00:07:53.02
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
We call it National Youth Service Corps. So I went to serve. And I was serving in a state in northeast of Nigeria. We had what we call the Christian Copas Fellowship. I was the vice president of the Christian Copas Fellowship.

00:08:09.90
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

00:08:09.99
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So in our Copas Fellowship, we would visit villages, in the mountains, the Koma Hills, people that have no gospel at all.

00:08:20.71
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

00:08:20.76
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
I felt, yes, this is where God seemed to be calling me. I have to learn their language, live among them.

00:08:26.18
Jenn Chen
Mm. Mm.

00:08:28.03
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
In fact, we visited a particular tribe that, this was in 1989, they don't have clothing.

00:08:28.70
Jenn Chen
Mm.

00:08:35.99
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
They don't wear clothes.

00:08:36.52
Jenn Chen
yeah

00:08:37.36
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
They don't have clothes to wear. They are clothes where, you know, they will they will just cut some branches from the trees and cover their back and their front. And that was how they lived.

00:08:49.21
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So I felt, yes, that's the place I want to go. And when I finished my National Youth Service Corps year, I picked up a job as a site engineer, working as a construction engineer for a company.

00:09:04.11
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
I only worked for about three months. I was very restless.

00:09:07.82
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

00:09:09.08
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Restless that I wish i resigned the job, then took three weeks to go to one of the remote villages where we had gone for evangelism.

00:09:20.53
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
as National Youth Service Corps members. So I spent three weeks there praying and seeking God's face. I said, Lord, what do you want me to do?

00:09:27.78
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

00:09:30.63
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
And there the Lord spoke to me and said, go to School of Missions.

00:09:36.13
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
I came out from the village, shared had with my friends. I said, the Lord is saying to me, I should go to School of Missions. So I packed my stuff and went to Capro.

00:09:49.08
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Calvary Ministries, Capro, and I joined their school of missions.

00:09:49.53
Jenn Chen
Okay. Hmm.

00:09:54.95
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
As at that time, I was praying also, asking, okay, Lord, if I'm going to school of mission, to which people are you sending me? Already because I schooled in the northern part of Nigeria, my encounter with Islam happened there in the university.

00:10:10.76
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
My first two roommates were Muslims from Kano.

00:10:15.91
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So i one day I was reading, that there was a time I was studying the book of Galatians in my personal quiet time, and I felt the Lord was calling me. He said, as Paul to these Gentiles, so sent I you to the Muslims.

00:10:33.46
Don
Mm-hmm.

00:10:34.34
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
That was how I received it. that The Lord called Saul, Paul the apostle, and sent him to the Gentiles. He said, my calling is to the Muslims.

00:10:41.37
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

00:10:43.95
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So when I finished the school of missions, while I was in school of missions, now was going to know where exactly.

00:10:43.94
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

00:10:49.93
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So it was clear it was going to be to Muslims.

00:10:50.100
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

00:10:52.43
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
But I thought it was going to be within to Muslim peoples in Nigeria because we have lots of Muslim people groups in northern Nigeria. But one day I was praying, still pleading with God in prayer, and the Lord spoke to me prayer and said, have you considered going to serve me in North Africa?

00:11:07.51
Jenn Chen
oh

00:11:13.59
Jenn Chen
Wow.

00:11:14.16
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
North Africa? That was really very strange. And then something else happened while I was in the school of missions. I met my wife.

00:11:25.95
Jenn Chen
Praise the Lord.

00:11:26.17
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So there we became friends. And one day we are comparing notes. I was asking her, what is her vision and all that? And she told me that she feels the Lord is calling her to go and serve in Morocco.

00:11:40.71
Jenn Chen
Wow.

00:11:41.69
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
I said, how did you come about that? She explained, Capro used to have what we call prayer cards for different nations. And while she was a student, she used to go to Kapuro during the summer vacations, spend time in the missionh with missionaries in the village.

00:11:59.80
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So she had these prayer cards in her Bible. So in her quiet time, she would take one country and pray for them. She said that was one day she was praying. It was a card from Morocco.

00:12:11.73
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
And as she was praying, she had a voice speaking to her in her heart, said, I'm going to take you to this country today. to proclaim my name.

00:12:21.46
Don
Amen.

00:12:22.85
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

00:12:22.100
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So I said, oh, so we are meant to be together.

00:12:27.01
Jenn Chen
Wow.

00:12:28.31
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So we finished our missions training in 1991 and then we both joined. Yes. Yes. Yes. No. and then we bojo

00:12:33.05
Don
Can I just interrupt for the question for our viewers?

00:12:34.91
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
yes yes

00:12:37.45
Don
um

00:12:37.66
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
yeah

00:12:37.84
Don
I know quite a bit about the School of Mission, but can you describe, it's not a Bible school exactly, is it? What what what is it?

00:12:43.74
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
no

00:12:44.49
Don
What do you do there? Just like one-minute thing.

00:12:46.87
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
yeah School of Missions is a place, I would say, is a cross-cultural missions training school that they teach people who have a sense of calling to serve as missionaries among those who have not heard the gospel at all.

00:13:03.13
Don
Right. Mm-hmm.

00:13:03.52
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
They teach you some cross-cultural missions. um communication how can you communicate the gospel in another culture there are two components to the training mainly is called cultural admissions training and discipleship the emphasis is discipleship because they they said we won't give you certificates your life will become your certificate That the the more you become like Jesus, the more your message will be heard wherever you are sent.

00:13:31.53
Jenn Chen
hmm hmm

00:13:36.44
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So that's what School of Nations is all about.

00:13:37.79
Don
And and it's it's like a boot camp. It's very practical. You go out and do things every day. It's not just sitting with books.

00:13:43.48
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Yes. Yeah, it's not just books.

00:13:44.88
Don
Yes.

00:13:46.10
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
There are times for classes. But there are practical things you do because it is during those practical things you are doing, maybe going to the farm, going to fetch water from a well, playing volleyball.

00:13:58.83
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
That's when your real personality shows.

00:14:00.30
Jenn Chen
no

00:14:01.41
Don
Yeah.

00:14:02.27
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
And then the trainers are watching to point you to certain things of your life that you need to learn to become like Jesus.

00:14:02.43
Don
And you...

00:14:08.99
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
so

00:14:09.97
Jenn Chen
and

00:14:09.99
Don
And you live in community intensely.

00:14:10.67
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Yes.

00:14:11.66
Jenn Chen
Wow.

00:14:11.75
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Yeah, we live in community.

00:14:12.69
Don
or Yes.

00:14:13.80
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
We live in community.

00:14:14.24
Don
Amazing.

00:14:15.70
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
it's It's such a training that was really impactful in in our lives.

00:14:20.95
Don
Okay. Thank you. Continue with your so Morocco.

00:14:22.29
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Yeah, yeah.

00:14:22.83
Jenn Chen
Yeah, that's good. Thank you for asking that.

00:14:25.09
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Yeah, so I shared with my wife, her name is Dolaco.

00:14:25.43
Don
Morocco. Yes.

00:14:30.07
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So, and we compared those, we felt the Lord was leading us together. And we finished our missions training 1991.

00:14:40.46
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
And I was posted to work among the Nupi people in Northern Nigeria. My wife studied and mass communication. So she was posted to work with the department, the media department that publishes the missions journal of Capro called Occupy. So she was the assistant editor.

00:15:00.55
Jenn Chen
Wow.

00:15:01.14
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So I went to Nupi field, started learning Nupi language. And then Still praying on how drunk good the Lord will take us to North Africa. I didn't know.

00:15:11.85
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
I read up about North Africa, the country the Lord has put in our hearts, 99.9% Muslims. like nine point nine percent muslims

00:15:20.70
Jenn Chen
wow

00:15:20.100
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
What languages? They have their own local languages, verbal languages. Arabic is the national language. They speak French. I said, how will I do this? I made a map of that country, put in my Bible, and every morning in my quiet time, I will pray for the country.

00:15:38.15
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So one day while praying, the Lord spoke to me and said, you have to go back to university and prepare for your for your move to North Africa.

00:15:47.45
Jenn Chen
Okay.

00:15:49.32
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So this was towards the end of 1991, 1991. nineteen ninety one might ninety ninety one So, 92. So, I told the leadership of Capro.

00:16:01.95
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
I said, the Lord is calling us to North Africa. and they said, well, you prove your ministry in Nigeria first before we send you. And of as at that time, Capro didn't have any work outside West Africa.

00:16:16.13
Jenn Chen
okay

00:16:17.20
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Capro work was only mainly in West Africa. So, in 1993, got married my wife And then we moved to Amadoubele University, the same university where I got my bachelor's in building.

00:16:33.92
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
And I started a master's degree in engineering and structural engineering. The idea was that I would get a master's degree, move to Morocco, enroll in a school of engineering there to do a PhD in engineering. That was the plan.

00:16:52.14
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So when I finished my master's in engineering, I said, well, we need to, I was praying before that. And God said, when you finish, you are going to Senegal.

00:17:04.08
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So, and I told my wife, I said, this is what the Lord spoke to me.

00:17:05.10
Don
Thank

00:17:09.31
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
We are going to Senegal. will go and learn French in Senegal.

00:17:11.11
Jenn Chen
Mm-hmm.

00:17:13.36
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So I waited until the leadership of Capro approved it. And then we are sent to s Senegal in 1997. By that time, we already had it we had a two-year-old son.

00:17:25.64
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Our first son was born in 1995. So we moved to Senegal. And I want to emphasize this. We did not raise support.

00:17:37.84
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Kapro is a faith mission. If God calls you, you just go to where he has called you. Trust him, do the work he call it calls you to do, and he will provide.

00:17:46.37
Jenn Chen
Hmm. Hmm.

00:17:49.90
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
We did not raise support and say we had monthly support. We had no monthly support. We just had our flight tickets for the three of us, my wife, myself, son the car seneal and and few changes we needed to set up for our time.

00:18:08.51
Jenn Chen
o

00:18:09.11
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So when we arrived, we enrolled at the University Cheikh Anta Diop in Dakar to start learning French. I didn't even have $200 to pay for these French language studies.

00:18:22.29
Jenn Chen
wow

00:18:23.57
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
we We are praying, asking the Lord, Lord, you sent us here. We need $200. A woman came from the United States to Senegal, to Dakar.

00:18:34.76
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
And one missionary spoke to this woman about us. Oh, there is this couple who have just arrived. they ah They want to enroll in the university to learn French. And before we knew it,

00:18:46.90
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
They gave $200 to pay for our registration in the French language studies at Institut de Français pour les étudiants étrangers, which is at the university, translated Institute of French Studies for for foreign students.

00:19:04.05
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So we enrolled for one year. and um god being so gracious and merciful we are focused on it that within nine months we have become fluent enough in fact i recall i recall preaching my first someone in french after nine months you know that was awesome i started reading the bible in french memorizing verses in french because that's how i can communicate the gospel and

00:19:16.53
Jenn Chen
Amazing.

00:19:21.71
Don
well

00:19:28.21
Jenn Chen
It's good.

00:19:34.07
Jenn Chen
good

00:19:35.07
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So when we got got our French, we felt, okay, Lord, we are now ready to move to North Africa. We prayed, but to tell you the truth, we applied for visa to go to Morocco in 1998.

00:19:50.25
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
and Visa was denied.

00:19:52.83
Jenn Chen
Wow.

00:19:53.20
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So I said, Lord, what was this?

00:19:53.40
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

00:19:56.39
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
We've come here, we've gotten the French, we want to move on. So one morning I was praying again and the Holy Spirit asked me a question.

00:20:06.15
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

00:20:06.39
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
I said, which end now? So if Jesus is to return tomorrow, would you say because you didn't go to Morocco, that's why you didn't serve him?

00:20:17.97
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So be doing whatever has given you to do here in Dakar. So with that, i started we started evangelizing in the university campus.

00:20:30.01
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
started going to ah University Cheikh Anta Diop in the student residence door to door, I will knock.

00:20:36.27
Jenn Chen
Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.

00:20:37.57
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Those who open the door, I will go in, preach the gospel in French. you know That led to a few disciples that came to faith. ah At that time, there was no Senegalese student group on that university campus.

00:20:49.01
Jenn Chen
a

00:20:53.78
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So before we left, we had had about five students who have come to faith in Christ from the university.

00:21:02.03
Jenn Chen
a

00:21:02.63
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So one of them, I began discipling him. i would take him. We would go to campus and at night. We would pray. Like almost for several months, we would pray from midnight till 3 a.m.

00:21:18.03
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Midnight, as I told him, is a spiritual battle.

00:21:19.42
Jenn Chen
Mmm.

00:21:21.28
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
We have to fight it in the heavenlies. when god gives us souls then we have them it's not us that bring people to christ it's the work of the holy spirit and we are doing that until 1999 end of 1999 our capro leadership asked me to come back to nigeria and get a visa to go for an initial trip to morocco so i i went back to nigeria

00:21:27.44
Jenn Chen
Mmm. Mmm.

00:21:31.40
Don
Amen.

00:21:32.72
Jenn Chen
That's good.

00:21:46.91
Jenn Chen
Mmm.

00:21:49.92
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
got a visa. When I went to the Moroccan embassy, I spoke French to them. It was amazing. you know

00:21:58.26
Jenn Chen
Wow.

00:21:58.61
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
um They gave me the visa. I went to Morocco for two weeks. The goal of going to Morocco was for me to now go and enroll in the School of Engineering.

00:22:11.77
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
I call Mohamedia the Ingenieur. Muhammadiyah School of Engineering in Rabat for a doctoral studies in structural engineering. So I went and that was the same month King Hassan II died.

00:22:28.43
Jenn Chen
me

00:22:30.07
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So that's 1999. So I went and I went to the College of Engineering, met the head of Department of Civil Engineering and I said, I want to do doctoral studies in structural engineering.

00:22:45.20
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So the man said, oh, we want to really have you, but we don't have any professor in the whole of the country as at that time, who could mentor doctoral studies in structural engineering.

00:22:57.97
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

00:22:58.83
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So he proposed to me to enroll for doctoral work in highway engineering. And I said, well, I don't think I can do that because I studied building and majored in structures.

00:23:15.04
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Structures have to do with, you know, the elements that carry the load of every building, in the airport, bridges, that is structures.

00:23:23.73
Jenn Chen
e

00:23:24.65
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Highway engineering is totally different. So I said, I have not studied highway engineering. and I can't just jump in and being ah doing a PhD in highway engineering.

00:23:35.46
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So that was how that door was closed. But during that same trip, I met the pastor of the French-speaking church in Rabat. He was ah Frenchman.

00:23:47.83
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

00:23:48.08
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
and Pastor Rene Guitart was his name, is his name.

00:23:52.04
Don
I know him.

00:23:52.12
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
And yeah, Pastor Guitart invited me to his office. please We had a wonderful conflict conversation. And he said, do you say you're a Nigerian? I said, yes. He said, but your French is excellent.

00:24:08.38
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
How? I said, well, I studied it in the University of Dakar. And that was how he now invited me and said, can you come and serve as the assistant pastor of the Iglesia Evangelique of Morocco in Rabat?

00:24:21.88
Jenn Chen
Wow. Wow.

00:24:23.66
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
And that was how the Lord took us to Morocco the following year, 2000. We moved to Morocco.

00:24:30.03
Jenn Chen
me

00:24:30.11
Don
Wow.

00:24:30.68
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
And we lived and served there for almost 10 years. We left Morocco in 2010.

00:24:39.76
Don
So I knew Rene, and it's exciting to hear that you served in the French Protestant Church there for those 10 years.

00:24:45.92
Jenn Chen
me

00:24:47.33
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Yes.

00:24:49.25
Don
um

00:24:49.30
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Yeah.

00:24:49.40
Jenn Chen
know

00:24:51.87
Don
As always, we have limited time in this. So can you share a bit of

00:24:54.46
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Yes.

00:24:58.76
Don
how your experience in Morocco tied in with your experience back in Northern Nigeria and how that led to the book that's sitting behind your head there on the shelf.

00:25:09.70
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Okay.

00:25:11.04
Don
What's that about?

00:25:11.12
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Yes.

00:25:11.64
Don
it what why did you do What was your doctoral studies? Yes. yes

00:25:14.96
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Okay. Well, While we are Morocco, we loved Moroccans we give ourselves to prayers. We mobilized sub-Saharan African students who we are serving in the country to be praying for the country.

00:25:30.94
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So we used to have an all-night prayer, prayer vigil every last Friday of the month.

00:25:31.53
Jenn Chen
hmm

00:25:37.51
Don
Amen.

00:25:37.60
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
We'll pray from 10 p.m. till dawn, praying for the country.

00:25:40.48
Jenn Chen
me

00:25:43.87
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
My experience was that it was not about what we preach. It's about those whom God has been preparing their hearts to receive the word.

00:25:53.59
Don
and

00:25:54.22
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
i use I came to understand that even before I came to the land, there are many people God had been working in their hearts.

00:25:54.68
Jenn Chen
in

00:26:01.65
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Probably they've had dreams.

00:26:01.77
Jenn Chen
Yes.

00:26:02.97
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
They have had visions.

00:26:03.49
Jenn Chen
Yes. It's good.

00:26:04.87
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So I said, I don't need anybody to Christ. It's the work of the Holy Spirit.

00:26:08.81
Jenn Chen
me Yeah.

00:26:10.79
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
I want to serve as a midwife.

00:26:13.35
Jenn Chen
Yeah.

00:26:13.74
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Those whom Christ, whom the Holy Spirit have brought to Jesus. How can I accompany them to help them to follow Jesus? That was what I was doing. And then it led to the planting of a house church of believers from a Muslim background. In 2010, the authorities started expelling Christian workers.

00:26:36.61
Don
Ah, 2010.

00:26:36.68
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
About 150 workers were sent out of the country.

00:26:36.93
Don
thousand

00:26:40.93
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
workers we are sent out of the country And I was invited to the police headquarters and served an expulsion order that I had 48 hours to leave the country.

00:26:51.98
Jenn Chen
Oh my goodness.

00:26:52.32
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So that was how we left and then went back to Nigeria.

00:26:54.11
Jenn Chen
Wow.

00:26:57.100
Jenn Chen
Wow.

00:26:58.27
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
But before that time, we had been praying and asking the Lord, what are the next steps?

00:27:04.80
Don
Mm-hmm.

00:27:05.11
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
We printed the house, George. We handed it over to the local leaders. I said, you are now in charge.

00:27:11.31
Jenn Chen
Wow.

00:27:11.50
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
and Some of them were asking me why. I said, well, anything can happen if it is in your hands. And I told them this in 2009, not knowing that 2010 would be going to be a different story.

00:27:23.43
Jenn Chen
Wow.

00:27:24.80
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
I said, if I'm no longer here, you will still be here. The body of Christ will still be here. So in that 2009, while we are praying to disciple few other believers that are coming, in fact, we are preparing a woman for baptism, Easter of 2010.

00:27:33.22
Jenn Chen
so good

00:27:43.59
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So in 2009, I was praying in our bedroom, asking God for guidance. And the Lord spoke to me and said, Luciana, you and your family, you are going to United States. This was 2009.

00:27:57.49
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So 2010, expulsion happened.

00:27:58.06
Jenn Chen
Mm. Mm.

00:28:00.01
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
women but We went back to Nigeria. So i told our leaders in Capro, I said, I think I need some theological training.

00:28:04.22
Jenn Chen
Mm.

00:28:09.34
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
I come from an engineering background. I have one year cross-cultural missions training, but my experience in the field, I feel I want to go deeper to get some theological art training.

00:28:23.23
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
To my surprise, because I felt they would not approve it, ah my leaders felt you have all that you need to do what you are coached to do.

00:28:34.74
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Well, they approved it. and i ah i applied to two seminaries in the US.

00:28:37.30
Jenn Chen
Yes,

00:28:40.87
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
ah There were also milestones that would prove if this is the Lord. I didn't have money. I've been living by faith for how many years?

00:28:49.53
Jenn Chen
yes. yes

00:28:50.34
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So I applied to Gordon-Cornwell Theological Seminary and Ananda Seminary. They admitted me to do the MD program. Then Gordon-Cornwell offered me a scholarship that would pay all the costs, both for me and my family, tuition, our air flight, books, living expenses.

00:29:05.55
Don
but

00:29:07.22
Jenn Chen
Amazing.

00:29:09.95
Jenn Chen
amazing

00:29:12.01
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
But they said there is a condition to it, that the sponsor of that scholarship said that you must return back to Africa to continue ministry. So when I received the letter, I prayed, me and my wife, we prayed about it.

00:29:26.23
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
We said, well, this was now in 2010, December 2010. That's when they informed me that this scholarship would be given to me because I was to start start classes in the fall of 2011.

00:29:39.55
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So we prayed. We said, well, as I said that 2010, the Lord had not told us what lies ahead after the theological training.

00:29:46.24
Jenn Chen
e

00:29:48.36
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So I told them I cannot ah accept that offer. My conscience will not allow me to do it.

00:29:53.07
Jenn Chen
Wow.

00:29:55.85
Don
Mm-hmm.

00:29:56.17
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Because if after my training, God says, go somewhere else that is not within the continent of Africa, what happens? And I said to them, look we might move to France to reach Moroccans in France, North Africans, or move to Bahrain.

00:30:04.18
Jenn Chen
Right.

00:30:08.93
Jenn Chen
Right. Hmm.

00:30:10.60
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
I was thinking of Bahrain or somewhere in the Middle East.

00:30:12.63
Jenn Chen
la

00:30:14.26
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So because of that, I can't say yes to that offer. So they didn't give me that scholarship any anymore. But they gave me a scholarship that paid all my tuition.

00:30:26.17
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
And that was, they said I have to raise money. So I started praying. I won't have the time to tell you this story, but the Lord made it possible. We got our visas in June 2011.

00:30:39.47
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
And by August 2011, we landed at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary. The rest is story.

00:30:44.53
Jenn Chen
hmm hmm

00:30:45.76
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
I finished from Gordon-Conwell before finishing two of my professors there, Dr. Paul Martindale and Dr. Yes.

00:30:53.96
Don
A very good friend.

00:30:55.24
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
yes

00:30:55.34
Don
We were in Morocco together for many years.

00:30:57.04
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
yeah

00:30:57.70
Jenn Chen
hmm

00:30:58.01
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
and Dr. Todd Johnson, they encouraged me that I should go and do a PhD. Meanwhile, the Lord has spoken to me about it, but I was fighting against it. I said, I don't need a PhD.

00:31:08.06
Jenn Chen
me

00:31:10.49
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
I'm tired of studying.

00:31:12.12
Jenn Chen
yeah

00:31:12.88
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
you But I applied and I was admitted at Fuller Seminary for the PhD program in intercultural studies.

00:31:15.32
Jenn Chen
Hmm. Hmm.

00:31:21.66
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So I went to Fuller.

00:31:21.78
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

00:31:23.91
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
And my research was on peace building because Boko Haram has ravaged northern Nigeria and the effects are still there till today.

00:31:27.81
Jenn Chen
e

00:31:32.60
Jenn Chen
and

00:31:35.97
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So i went I was asking the question, how can churches in Nigeria, especially in northern Nigeria, respond to violence the way Jesus responded to violence?

00:31:48.35
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

00:31:49.07
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
That was the key question of my research.

00:31:51.51
Don
Hmm.

00:31:51.55
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

00:31:51.59
Don
Hmm.

00:31:52.15
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So I did an ethnographic research, went to Nigeria, interviewed teachers, theologians in three seminaries, did focus group interviews, and interviewed a lot of people from three major denominations that have been worst hit by the Boko Haram attacks.

00:32:15.82
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

00:32:16.52
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
And that was what led to my PhD dissertation. And when I finished and defended, my the PhD committee said, this work and needs to be published.

00:32:27.69
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
And they asked me to search for avenues to publish the work.

00:32:27.91
Jenn Chen
Wow.

00:32:33.69
Jenn Chen
Wow.

00:32:33.80
Don
So, Ushena, can you state in just two minutes what's the the heart of what that research revealed?

00:32:35.49
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Yes.

00:32:41.27
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Yes.

00:32:44.84
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Yeah.

00:32:45.26
Don
what What is it about?

00:32:47.08
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
The heart is this, that the triune God, in order to defeat sin, evil, and death, became human and died on the cross.

00:32:55.77
Jenn Chen
e

00:33:01.41
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So the idea that the pre-existing a pre-existent son of the one true God died the death of a common criminal on the cross, that should be regarded madness.

00:33:15.56
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
you know madness

00:33:17.70
Jenn Chen
Hmm. Hmm.

00:33:18.52
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So he died through the cross, and I call it, I call it Storocentric approach. The word Storos is a Greek word for cross.

00:33:30.51
Jenn Chen
a

00:33:30.79
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So it's a cross-centered approach. to the this the The thesis of the book says that the triune God employed the cross as his motive, as his method to so defeat the devil, death,

00:33:46.58
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Evil and violence.

00:33:48.43
Jenn Chen
hmm hmm

00:33:48.47
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So if followers of Jesus wants to defeat evil, wants to defeat death, wants to defeat sin, wants to defeat violence, they should follow Jesus' approach.

00:34:00.05
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
The cross.

00:34:01.35
Jenn Chen
hmm

00:34:01.71
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Now, that particular motif was followed by followers of Jesus clearly in the first two centuries of the Christian history.

00:34:10.30
Jenn Chen
me

00:34:10.76
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Stephen, when he was being stoned, we know the story, he prayed for the people who were stoning him. But when Constantine came in the third century, the whole story began to change.

00:34:24.71
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

00:34:24.99
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
And unfortunately, unfortunately, and most of the church followed that part of going to the crusades, killing people in the name of the cross, which is, yes,

00:34:35.78
Jenn Chen
me

00:34:37.28
Don
So Ushena, rather than going into the history, um I've taught on this history many times,

00:34:41.66
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Yes.

00:34:44.29
Don
um

00:34:44.68
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Yeah.

00:34:46.53
Don
how does this How is this heard back in Nigeria? Because hi I've taught there, I've traveled there, and people say, you know, let's Jesus says to turn the first cheek and then the second, but not the third.

00:34:51.04
Jenn Chen
a

00:34:54.33
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Okay.

00:35:00.17
Don
Then we get revenge.

00:35:00.67
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Exactly.

00:35:01.65
Don
So how are church leaders, are they saying, yes, this is the calling, or they are they having a hard time with it?

00:35:02.01
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Yeah.

00:35:05.34
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
I would... i I will tell you that the majority of churches, has they have this idea that, oh, Jesus said, when they slap you on one cheek, you should turn the second.

00:35:17.32
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
They said, we have turned the second, so we don't have a another cheek to turn.

00:35:21.97
Don
Yes.

00:35:23.01
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So they want to revenge.

00:35:23.17
Jenn Chen
um um

00:35:24.97
Don
Yes.

00:35:25.84
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
thus They want to revenge. But that is not Jesus' model.

00:35:30.01
Don
Yes.

00:35:30.47
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So the but the churches I interviewed mainly ECWA, E-C-W-A, which is Evangelical Church Winning All, and then Kukin, Church of Christ in Nations, and also another church denomination called Ecclesia, Yanwa in meaning the Church of the Brethren in Nigeria.

00:35:56.34
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
When I interviewed people from those places, from the northeast, their response to Boko Haram was opposite.

00:36:03.82
Jenn Chen
Wow.

00:36:04.57
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
They were loving Muslims.

00:36:06.62
Jenn Chen
Wow.

00:36:07.12
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
In the IDP camps, internally displaced persons camps, then we are providing food and clothing with Muslims.

00:36:11.49
Jenn Chen
Mm-hmm.

00:36:14.46
Don
Amen.

00:36:14.52
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
I remember interviewing somebody.

00:36:14.60
Don
Yes.

00:36:14.76
Jenn Chen
So good.

00:36:15.76
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Somebody asked, said, why are you people doing this to us? It's our own people, Muslims, that are killing your people.

00:36:20.28
Jenn Chen
I really love you.

00:36:23.16
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
And here you are providing food for us, giving us clothing.

00:36:26.07
Jenn Chen
Wow.

00:36:29.82
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
thats So there are are some, I think those who said we have turned the second cheek, we have no third cheek to turn. Most of them are the ministers and big, big pastors in the big cities.

00:36:41.58
Jenn Chen
me

00:36:42.73
Don
yes

00:36:43.28
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
But people who are in the heat of the suffering and pain, who love Jesus, the Holy Spirit is working in their heart, teaching them to respond be way Jesus will.

00:36:45.67
Jenn Chen
Yeah.

00:36:46.76
Don
Amen.

00:36:47.42
Jenn Chen
Yeah. Yeah.

00:36:51.84
Jenn Chen
So good.

00:36:56.10
Jenn Chen
So good.

00:36:56.89
Don
a man

00:36:57.27
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Yeah.

00:36:58.60
Jenn Chen
Uchenna, as I listen to you share, there's so much power in your story.

00:36:59.45
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Yes. Yeah.

00:37:04.13
Jenn Chen
i I wish we could have much longer to hear because you're taking a ah long life and you're making it a very short story.

00:37:11.31
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
yeah

00:37:12.67
Jenn Chen
So i i am I have so many questions. But I think as I think about our reader our listeners um to this podcast as who are who will listen to you tell your story, what encouragement do you have

00:37:18.87
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
yes

00:37:26.53
Jenn Chen
for those who are sensing God's call in their life and they want to serve. And what would you want to say to them? What would be your encouragement?

00:37:35.34
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Well, I want to say in a simple word that the God we serve, his Hebrew name is Yahweh.

00:37:42.82
Jenn Chen
a

00:37:44.44
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ is faithful.

00:37:48.39
Jenn Chen
e

00:37:50.21
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
He never fails. When he says a thing, he does it. So if God, maybe what I will say to encourage people is to tell a very short story.

00:37:55.88
Jenn Chen
So good.

00:38:01.11
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
When I was fighting to answer God's call, Because I come from a for family, I was seeking to have a job. I will have money to support my parents and my siblings.

00:38:12.12
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

00:38:12.44
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So one day in prayer, the Lord asked me this question. which and If I give you a job with the Federal Republic of Nigeria and with all and with the United Nations organization, which of them will you choose?

00:38:22.18
Don
Thank

00:38:26.63
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
I said, of course, I will take the UN job. They will pay me in dollars. I will have enough money.

00:38:33.75
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

00:38:34.89
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
And then the Holy Spirit said to me, oh, there is another organization. It's called the kingdom of heaven.

00:38:42.38
Jenn Chen
Wow.

00:38:43.54
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So which one will you choose among the three? That blew me away. I said, oh, will go for the kingdom of heaven because I know the kingdom of heaven, the riches, the silver and gold belongs to Yahweh.

00:38:49.47
Jenn Chen
a Amen.

00:38:57.71
Don
Amen.

00:38:57.83
Jenn Chen
That's right.

00:38:57.88
Don
ahmen

00:38:58.04
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
the air The heavens and the earth and the fullness thereof belong to the Lord. So I want to go for that one. So people who may be struggling about means, asking God's call, do not be afraid.

00:39:13.68
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
He never fails.

00:39:16.02
Jenn Chen
Such a good word.

00:39:16.34
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
And sincerely speaking, another thing is that the greatest joy one could have in eternity is seeing how God uses you.

00:39:28.73
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
to be an instrument to help another soul to be translated from the kingdom of that darkness into the kingdom of light.

00:39:40.38
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

00:39:41.19
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Paul said that in many of his letters, talking about that he tells the Philippians, you are my joy. you know So those who are sensing that call, hear that call in your heart and in the community of faith where you are,

00:39:49.57
Jenn Chen
So good.

00:39:54.52
Jenn Chen
me

00:39:56.95
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
If it's the Lord calling you, just launch out. He is faithful. He will never fail.

00:40:04.100
Don
Let me ask you a different kind of question. um Yeah, that was beautiful.

00:40:07.63
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Okay.

00:40:08.51
Jenn Chen
Thank you, Nuchena.

00:40:09.88
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
You're welcome.

00:40:10.63
Jenn Chen
Thank you.

00:40:11.53
Don
So you're you're probably much more aware than I am, but like not long ago in the Democratic Republic of Congo, there was a massacre of Christians.

00:40:20.95
Jenn Chen
Mm-hmm.

00:40:21.23
Don
Just last few days ago in Syria, the Islamists that were taken over the country massacred hundreds of Christians.

00:40:21.40
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Mm-hmm.

00:40:24.92
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Mm-hmm.

00:40:29.85
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Yeah.

00:40:31.17
Don
Maybe some people fleeing those situations might listen to this podcast. Is there something you can say to them about how to respond as you what you're talking about here?

00:40:37.65
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
okay Yeah.

00:40:42.05
Don
Because this this is not easy stuff.

00:40:42.56
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Okay. Yeah, it is not. It is not. It's hard. Let me say one or two things, and I can make it very simple.

00:40:52.97
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
ah thought Dr. Todd Johnson used to tell a story about David Barrett. David Barrett was the author of the World Christian Encyclopedia.

00:41:00.73
Don
Yes.

00:41:01.66
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
ah He was speaking to a group of businessmen, and they asked him, what's the best way that the world can be evangelized?

00:41:03.44
Jenn Chen
Hmm. Hmm.

00:41:09.47
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
And the David Barrett said, true matter done.

00:41:13.15
Jenn Chen
e

00:41:15.20
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
And they say, oh, please tell us the second best way.

00:41:18.78
Don
yeah They didn't want martyrdom.

00:41:21.21
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Okay. To that question, if we study history, wherever people have been killed because of their faith, I think it was a North African early theologian, I don't know whether it's attributed to Tertullian, also who said, yeah, that said the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the gospel.

00:41:26.77
Jenn Chen
a

00:41:37.77
Don
Yeah. Yeah. no

00:41:45.68
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
And when we look at history, we see that. Look at China, for example.

00:41:49.44
Jenn Chen
a

00:41:49.80
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
The house church movement we see today in China.

00:41:53.04
Jenn Chen
Yeah.

00:41:53.55
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Let us remember how the thousands or millions of Christians were are killed in China. i was Another example is South Korea. I was at the Lausanne Congress in September last year for the 4th Lausanne Congress.

00:42:09.42
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
And the Korean church presented, they gave a presentation and they called the 12 Stones of the Korean Church.

00:42:16.13
Jenn Chen
Yeah, so good.

00:42:17.98
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
And the 5th church, they told the story of one pastor's whose son was killed.

00:42:24.20
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

00:42:24.98
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
And then when the guy who killed son's and his two sons, actually. When the guy was to be judged and sentenced, Pastor Son came up and pleaded for them to forgive the child and he adopted that but young boy.

00:42:44.34
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

00:42:45.50
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
He adopted the murderer, the killer of his two sons to become his son.

00:42:50.22
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

00:42:51.10
Don
well

00:42:53.01
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
And you look at the church in South Korea today, And this happened, I think, around 1901 1902.

00:43:00.65
Jenn Chen
Yeah.

00:43:02.21
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Formerly, South Korea was almost an entirely Buddhist country.

00:43:08.20
Jenn Chen
Yes.

00:43:08.78
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
But today, South Korea is a major missionary force sending out followers of Jesus, disciples of Jesus, proclaiming the gospel in the nations.

00:43:13.100
Jenn Chen
Yes.

00:43:21.12
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
I think many times it's because of the sacrifice of the followers of Jesus who in the face of death, they are pronouncing blessings on those who are killing them.

00:43:32.37
Jenn Chen
e

00:43:34.53
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
The Lord answers their cry and prayers.

00:43:36.65
Jenn Chen
Yeah.

00:43:37.16
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
And then before you know it, you see an outburst.

00:43:37.58
Jenn Chen
Yeah.

00:43:40.50
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So that's what I can say in the Congo. Although there is a political and economic and ah dimension to the issues happening in the Congo, but... and the the death of the saints, God doesn't take it he doesn't

00:43:58.31
Jenn Chen
Lightly.

00:43:58.63
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
it it doesn't take it lightly.

00:43:58.92
Jenn Chen
That's right. Yeah, was so good.

00:44:00.93
Don
yeah

00:44:01.93
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
We may not see the result immediately, but certainly the Lord will remember the the the the fact that these people bore witness to the name of our resurrected Lord Jesus Christ.

00:44:04.38
Jenn Chen
a

00:44:17.08
Jenn Chen
It's a good word.

00:44:17.50
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Yeah.

00:44:18.22
Don
I have another question, but Jen, do you have something else before i jump in?

00:44:18.76
Jenn Chen
Yeah.

00:44:20.03
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Yes.

00:44:22.63
Jenn Chen
No, go for it, Dawn.

00:44:23.63
Don
Okay.

00:44:24.26
Jenn Chen
yeah

00:44:24.81
Don
um i I know a former colleague,

00:44:31.03
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Yes.

00:44:31.51
Don
He was, i think, Korean. And he was with the mission that I'm a part of. And um he was in Central Asia.

00:44:38.57
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Mm-hmm.

00:44:41.77
Don
And he he was a lot of persecution happening for him and the believers there.

00:44:47.40
Jenn Chen
That's

00:44:49.12
Don
And i forget the whole story, but he he left the mission.

00:44:55.15
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Mm-hmm.

00:44:55.58
Don
because of our security policies that said, you must if there's violence, you have to get out of the site and forcing people to escape persecution.

00:45:02.95
Jenn Chen
good.

00:45:04.50
Don
He said, that is not the Jesus way. I cannot be part of a mission that goes this way.

00:45:06.99
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Yeah.

00:45:09.46
Don
how do you How do you personally see this issue playing out with Westerners and Africans in missions in dangerous places?

00:45:18.70
Jenn Chen
a

00:45:20.33
Don
I mean, What implications does this theology of the cross and of suffering have for our policies, are our pastoral care policies?

00:45:21.52
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Okay.

00:45:24.67
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Yeah.

00:45:29.79
Jenn Chen
Yeah.

00:45:30.01
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Yeah.

00:45:30.09
Don
Any thoughts?

00:45:30.93
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Now, the Storocentric approach or the cross-centered approach is not a fatalistic approach where you say, okay, go and kill yourself. No, that's not it.

00:45:40.30
Don
Of course.

00:45:41.74
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
It's important to first of all say, does the Lord want me to be here?

00:45:46.29
Don
Yes.

00:45:47.21
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
If the Lord says, be there, remain there.

00:45:50.41
Don
Yeah.

00:45:51.03
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
and And we have to come to the point whereby we, as Paul would say, I don't count my life there to me. You remember when he was to go to Jerusalem, jerusalemam he went to visit the church in Ephesus in Acts, and there were prophecies that he's going to be arrested and all that.

00:46:02.10
Jenn Chen
Yeah.

00:46:13.19
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
And they pleaded with him not to go. He said, no, he went.

00:46:17.75
Don
Mm-hmm.

00:46:18.43
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So the important thing is, what is the Lord saying?

00:46:22.30
Jenn Chen
That's good.

00:46:23.81
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
that

00:46:23.86
Jenn Chen
Yeah.

00:46:24.63
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
If the Lord says leave, then leave.

00:46:27.21
Jenn Chen
me

00:46:28.06
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
And God will confirm it. I am such a one that I don't believe no follower of Jesus has the monopoly of the Holy Spirit.

00:46:37.48
Jenn Chen
That's right. That's good.

00:46:38.100
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So if the Lord speaks to me that I should do something, I want to confirm if that voice I heard is from the Lord. Jesus said, the scripture tells us by the word of two or three witnesses, every word will be ah established.

00:46:53.83
Jenn Chen
Yeah.

00:46:54.44
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So I will want to share you with my brothers and sisters in community of faith, maybe if it's my mission agency, you know, talk it over with them and hear if the Holy Spirit will confirm that that is what I should do.

00:47:08.58
Don
Yeah.

00:47:08.95
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So no one should be an island in himself or herself. Let us respect respect that the Holy Spirit that speaks to me is the same Holy Spirit that speaks to you, Don, that speaks to you, Jane.

00:47:21.99
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
And I should know that he's the same Holy Spirit.

00:47:22.01
Jenn Chen
yeah

00:47:24.62
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
There are no two Holy Spirits. And the ma Holy Spirit will not come confound himself and say one thing here and say another thing elsewhere. So ah personally, I try to hear God in community as well there will be circumstances that will show that this is what the lord is doing so that will be my response to that question yeah yeah

00:47:39.73
Don
Amen.

00:47:46.95
Jenn Chen
good. Yeah.

00:47:51.31
Jenn Chen
Yeah. I've heard you say, Uchenna, through our conversation, just the importance of hearing God's voice and the role of the Holy Spirit in just from the beginning, grabbing hold of your life and to now.

00:48:05.38
Jenn Chen
um Yeah. In this season that you find yourself, what are what are you what are you hearing from the Lord?

00:48:10.20
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Yes.

00:48:13.63
Jenn Chen
Like as you're, you know, just in your continuing to serve him in this season, what does that look like?

00:48:18.25
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Yes. Okay. All right. Briefly, i finished my PhD from Fuller in 2020. And I was thinking, what next?

00:48:31.20
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
um Both my wife and I, my wife was studying at that time also. She was doing her PhD at Tufts University. in nutrition interventions. So we came to the point that, oh, let's pray, let's know, do we return back to North Africa or somewhere?

00:48:40.86
Jenn Chen
Wow. So

00:48:46.60
Jenn Chen
good.

00:48:48.45
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
And then we felt this nudge that the Lord was asking us to remain in the United States. My wife was teaching English to arab arab Arabic-speaking women.

00:48:59.28
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
She has been doing that for four years.

00:48:59.99
Jenn Chen
when so again

00:49:01.83
Don
Mm-hmm.

00:49:02.78
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
She's still doing it up till now. You know, and she she was doing it before COVID. And then when COVID started, she moved the training online. So we got involved with an Egyptian brother who was out to has who as a ministry to Arab immigrants in the greater Boston area.

00:49:20.22
Jenn Chen
So good.

00:49:22.28
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So pre, we felt the Lord was telling us, the people you are actually trying to reach, many of them are here.

00:49:29.27
Jenn Chen
e

00:49:31.09
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So that was how I began to have this knowledge towards ministry to Muslims from the Arab world in diaspora.

00:49:39.34
Don
Amen.

00:49:39.80
Jenn Chen
so good

00:49:39.98
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So ah what we are sensing is there are two things I'm getting involved now to do. I am working with Frontier Fellowship. Frontier Fellowship is a mission mobilization organization.

00:49:53.11
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So the first part of my work is to mobilize churches

00:49:57.02
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

00:49:57.41
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
to connect them with indigenous Sub-Saharan African missionaries who are laboring in the Sahel region of Africa.

00:50:04.16
Don
and

00:50:05.38
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
And then the second part of my role is ministry to Arabic-speaking Muslim immigrant immigrants here in the U.S.

00:50:05.98
Jenn Chen
ah

00:50:14.68
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So that's what we are that's what what I am doing right now. And I'm praying that the Lord will help me make the right connections with churches and with people that we are involved in.

00:50:26.76
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
in reaching out yes thank you you're welcome it's really a pleasure i consider it a real privilege to be asked to come and share my testimony with you folks

00:50:30.45
Jenn Chen
I hear such faithfulness. Thank you for sharing that.

00:50:45.10
Don
let Let me, yeah we we can take a little longer here. I feel like, so I resonate deeply with your theology, cross-centered theology.

00:50:55.69
Don
i mean, I teach on persecution and I really call people to, you know, submit to Christ and let him guide them.

00:50:56.19
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
yes

00:51:05.62
Don
um You've been in the States for 15 years now, 13 plus

00:51:11.17
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
About 13 plus years now.

00:51:12.19
Jenn Chen
Mm.

00:51:14.13
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
ah ah

00:51:15.13
Jenn Chen
Mm.

00:51:15.19
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
August this year, I think it's 14 years. Yep.

00:51:17.69
Don
So do you find that you can talk about this theology of suffering and persecution and the cross to American Christians and American pastors and they get it?

00:51:17.91
Jenn Chen
Mm.

00:51:28.95
Don
Or do you feel like they're sort of glaze over and say, oh, yeah, I guess some people have to deal with that. hard How do you find this passion of yours um being received but by American Christians?

00:51:37.88
Jenn Chen
me

00:51:40.49
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
yeah There are some American scholars that know it, particularly the Mennonites.

00:51:47.41
Don
yeah yes yes long historical yeah

00:51:50.98
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
The Mennonites, they know that. John Yoda has written books on that, yes. Then there are some others, Dr. Scott Sundquist,

00:52:03.56
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
who served as a missionary in Asia for many years, and who is currently the president of Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary. He wrote a book on that, on the issue of suffering, the part suffering plays in God's mission.

00:52:11.24
Don
right yeah

00:52:18.18
Don
Yes. It's

00:52:18.84
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
And then there is one, Dr. Greg Boyd, I think his name is Greg Boyd, who has written, you know, a few volumes on the cross.

00:52:27.42
Don
great.

00:52:28.82
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Yes. So there are some, those who have sought to go deeper into these things, they know it, they know that it's there. But the larger, the majority sea of pastors or ministers may not resonate, it may not resonate with them.

00:52:44.40
Jenn Chen
Mm.

00:52:46.77
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
And I always say, you know, people, there is, I shared it somewhere in a meeting and somebody said, oh, what I'm really saying is like, so are you saying people who have to, you know, um not fight for their rights?

00:52:46.76
Jenn Chen
Mm.

00:53:03.35
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
I say, yes. The cross invites us to come and die.

00:53:04.87
Jenn Chen
Mm. Wow. Yeah.

00:53:09.39
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
The cross invites us to come and die to our rights, to our ambitions, to our aspirations, to die to ourselves, to die to our flesh.

00:53:13.54
Jenn Chen
Mm. Hmm.

00:53:21.18
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
But only those who see the resurrection after the cross can embrace the invitation of the cross. So when we when I say the cross, I don't just mean only the death of Jesus.

00:53:36.64
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
No, it is both the death and the resurrection of Christ together.

00:53:41.75
Don
Mm-hmm.

00:53:41.82
Jenn Chen
a

00:53:42.67
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So when Jesus said, if anyone wants to come after me, let him take up his, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.

00:53:53.48
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
That invitation is to go and die to self, die to my rights, die to my ambitions and aspirations to surrender everything to Jesus.

00:53:57.31
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

00:54:04.49
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
And then in my death to those things, I find a life that is forever, a life that something that is amazing. I think it was Jim Elliot that is quoted to have written in his diary and that he is no fool he how did he he' snow full who gives up what he cannot keep in order to gain what he canno but to have what he cannot gain.

00:54:28.72
Jenn Chen
Hmm. Again, what you cannot lose. Hmm.

00:54:34.20
Don
but he cannot lose. Amen.

00:54:35.51
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
what he cannot lose, you know?

00:54:35.82
Jenn Chen
Hmm. Hmm. a

00:54:37.93
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So that that is a cross. You know, I come to Jesus, I surrender everything, surrender my ambition, surrender my rights and say, Lord, whatever you want, that is shiru the day.

00:54:49.86
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
And if it means physical death, I go for it knowing that physical death is not the end. The resurrection is there. So there is that this aspect of dying daily, giving up my rights, sacrificial love for the other, to see the well-being of the other person at my own expense.

00:55:11.23
Jenn Chen
me

00:55:11.77
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
That's the kind of dying. But when I do that, life comes out of it, you know.

00:55:17.29
Jenn Chen
So good.

00:55:17.42
Don
Amen. Amen.

00:55:21.39
Jenn Chen
Yeah.

00:55:23.93
Don
You got another question, Jen? I feel like you can probe a bit there.

00:55:27.03
Jenn Chen
Well, I just, I feel like that's such a good word in a time where

00:55:35.23
Jenn Chen
the dying to self and is not such, it's not such a popular idea.

00:55:41.69
Don
Hmm.

00:55:41.87
Jenn Chen
It's a good word, a reminder to us that he's still worthy. um, for myself after 30 years of ministry and still wanting to continue and for the younger generation coming up that he is still worthy and Yahweh is sovereign and he loves us and he is faithful.

00:56:00.13
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Yeah.

00:56:04.04
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Yeah.

00:56:04.96
Jenn Chen
That's what I hear you say in your testimony and it's such a good affirmation and um a moment to remember what we're about.

00:56:13.53
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
yeah

00:56:14.10
Jenn Chen
um Yeah, just encouraged at the doors the Lord has opened for you and um just blessings on you and your wife just as you continue to to serve.

00:56:22.17
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Thank you. Thank you.

00:56:23.33
Jenn Chen
That's so good.

00:56:24.82
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Thank you. I really appreciate that.

00:56:25.17
Jenn Chen
Yeah.

00:56:26.46
Don
let Let me ask one last question.

00:56:28.75
Jenn Chen
Yeah.

00:56:29.15
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Okay, done.

00:56:29.63
Don
ah As Jen said at the beginning, people like to get the person, not just their accomplishments.

00:56:32.64
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Yes.

00:56:36.74
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Yes.

00:56:38.14
Don
Right now, what would be the the sufferings and the the struggles that you and your wife are ah having to face and find grace for?

00:56:48.93
Jenn Chen
a

00:56:49.78
Don
Looking externally at your life, it seems like you've got it all made, but

00:56:52.61
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Yes.

00:56:54.21
Don
It's not always the way it leads.

00:56:55.52
Jenn Chen
e

00:56:56.57
Don
You can share one or two things.

00:56:56.99
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Okay. will share one thing. and As I said, I'm working with Frontier Fellowship now, and I did allude to faith missions.

00:57:09.74
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
um Now, in Frontier Fellowship, I am now being asked to raise my financial support, which is not a model I'm used to.

00:57:20.93
Don
Yeah.

00:57:22.21
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
you know But I've come to an organization and I don't blame the organization. because It's just this way the system works in the United States.

00:57:29.83
Jenn Chen
Yeah, yeah.

00:57:29.93
Don
Yeah.

00:57:30.40
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Because you have to report certain things, your annual taxes and several other things. So a a goal has been set that I need to raise that. That's a challenge to me.

00:57:45.06
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
I did tell them, I did tell... the fundraising consultant or Frontier Fellowship. I said, look at how I've always operated. I hear the Lord say, do this. I launched myself into it without having any resource.

00:57:58.33
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
And as I'm doing it, the Lord will be providing what is required for that work.

00:57:59.55
Jenn Chen
hmm hmm

00:58:03.36
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
But now I find myself in a different framework.

00:58:03.60
Jenn Chen
hmm

00:58:08.30
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
that I am in the United States, I'm working with this organization, I have to raise this form within a given period of time before you know I can really launch out and do what I am really called to do.

00:58:26.59
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So I would say it's a little bit challenging for me, but I'm taking it to the Lord in prayer.

00:58:29.81
Jenn Chen
Yeah.

00:58:32.35
Don
Amen.

00:58:32.49
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
And as I'm praying, God has given me peace. You know, the word the word that came to my heart as I pray about it is the question that Saul, Paul, the apostle, asked the Galatians and said, how is it that you started in the spirit?

00:58:36.37
Jenn Chen
Mm.

00:58:48.13
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Will you now end in the flesh?

00:58:49.86
Jenn Chen
And in this, that's right.

00:58:50.44
Don
Amen.

00:58:51.76
Jenn Chen
It's good.

00:58:51.81
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
so I say, I, I've been working on this model of trusting the Lord. So even though this framework has changed, I will continue to work in the spirit and let God lead me to those people, to those churches he wants to designate to use to, to meet these needs.

00:59:12.61
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So that's, that's, um, that's one thing, you know, and, um,

00:59:17.08
Don
Okay.

00:59:17.09
Jenn Chen
That's so good.

00:59:18.62
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So that's one thing I can share for now in that regard.

00:59:21.18
Don
Thank you. Thank you for being vulnerable.

00:59:22.31
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Yes.

00:59:22.40
Jenn Chen
Thank you.

00:59:24.04
Don
um

00:59:24.27
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Thank you.

00:59:24.50
Jenn Chen
Yeah.

00:59:24.72
Don
Can you just hold up a copy of your book and so we can see it and tell us what it is? Wow.

00:59:30.45
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

00:59:31.54
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Okay, I have a copy here. The book is titled Pathways to Peace Building, Storocentric Theology in Nigeria's Context of Acute Violence.

00:59:36.25
Jenn Chen
Hmm. Hmm.

00:59:46.60
Don
well

00:59:46.60
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

00:59:47.36
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So It's on Amazon, it's also on bands and mobiles.

00:59:52.64
Don
So who who should read this book?

00:59:52.83
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
um

00:59:54.39
Don
Is this for every worker or is it for every Christian?

00:59:55.07
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
yeah

00:59:57.23
Don
who

00:59:57.99
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
I will say, in fact, I will tell you, Don, I feel i want to write another book, um but I'm already teasing out an article that will be published probably in the International Society of Missiology Journal.

01:00:14.56
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
um that I want to write another book that I want to enlarge. How does this apply to missions?

01:00:21.38
Jenn Chen
It's good.

01:00:21.74
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
for For this book, it was mainly for the Nigerian context of Boko Haram, but the key thesis of the of the book is applicable to missions, applicable in in several in several other ways.

01:00:26.27
Don
Right. Thank you.

01:00:39.98
Don
thank you

01:00:40.59
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
So I pray for God's grace to have the time to work on that.

01:00:41.10
Jenn Chen
a Okay.

01:00:46.13
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Yes.

01:00:46.16
Don
Thank you so much. This has been a rich conversation.

01:00:48.56
Jenn Chen
Yes.

01:00:48.60
Don
It's a delight to to meet with you and talk with you. Any final comments, Jen, before we sign off here?

01:00:52.17
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Thank you.

01:00:56.25
Jenn Chen
No, it's been an honor. Thank you so much, Jaina.

01:00:58.91
Don
and Thank you so much for sharing your heart with us and pray that God will continue to lead you as he has your whole life.

01:01:00.53
Jenn Chen
Yes.

01:01:05.06
Jenn Chen
That's right.

01:01:05.34
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Amen.

01:01:05.70
Jenn Chen
You will.

01:01:06.59
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Amen.

01:01:06.63
Don
and

01:01:06.79
Jenn Chen
Yeah.

01:01:08.05
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
Thank you so much for inviting me. it's really a privilege. I am grateful to you all and to the Lord. May the Lord bless your work and your ministries.

01:01:15.80
Jenn Chen
Thank you so much.

01:01:17.13
Don
Okay, let's say goodbye then.

01:01:17.48
Uchenna D. Anyanwu
yeah correct Okay. Goodbye.

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