A Kenyan Woman’s Powerful Impact

Jenn [00:00:00]:
Welcome to the Reflexio Podcast. Unhurried conversations with men and women from the east, west and global south who are living out the gospel in a variety of kingdom contexts around the world.

Don [00:00:14]:
Join us as we explore the world of missions and marketplace service thoughtfully and biblically through these often hidden stories of God at work.

Jenn [00:00:28]:
Well, welcome to the Reflexio podcast, and I am so glad that we get to have you, Carol, with us today. I'm curious, Carol, where are you this. This evening? For you.

Carol Makanda [00:00:42]:
This evening, I'm in Nairobi in Karen. A beautiful green space, a retreat center. It's. It's home care retreat center. It's a garden. There's a garden for prayer and then some accommodation for people who want to meet and just have a quiet working space or prayer space.

Jenn [00:01:07]:
That's wonderful.

Carol [00:01:07]:
And I'm happy to be here. I've been coming here for so many years for just prayer, reflection, and renewal.

Jenn [00:01:16]:
That's so good, Carol.

Don [00:01:19]:
And are you there for more than a day or are you just there for a day?

Carol [00:01:23]:
We are here for three days. I'm with a team of pastors that I work with, a team of those that are writing the materials we use for training. Our materials are written in English, and now we are translating in Swahili, which is the national language.

Don [00:01:53]:
That's great.

Jenn [00:02:03]:
So, Carol, who are you with for these few days that you're at the retreat center?

Carol [00:02:10]:
I am with a team of 12 pastors who are involved in the work of translation, most of them Bible translation. A few of them are theologians working in different spaces. And they are helping us to translate our materials, training materials for pastors into the national language, which is Swahili. So we are. We had them written in English. Now they are translating in Swahili so that people can understand. Yeah.

Jenn [00:02:49]:
That is wonderful. I'm so curious, Carol, like, how long have you been involved in this ministry?

Carol [00:03:01]:
I have been involved in ministry for many years. I can't even count. But for this particular ministry, it's been more than 10 years training pastors in the rural areas.

Jenn [00:03:19]:
That's amazing.

Don [00:03:22]:
So I would sort of like to give our listeners a bit of a sense of how this arrived. Do you want to tell us just a bit about your background and your early years in ministry, and then we can get to the point where this ministry is your main focus.

Carol [00:03:44]:
Okay, thank you for asking that question.

Don [00:03:46]:
I'm raised in a Christian family. Go ahead.

Carol [00:03:50]:
Yes, thank you for asking. My journey is long and short at the same time. I was born in a Christian home. I say to believing Grandparents and mother. My father was a Christian, but I think by the time I was born, he was a bit distant from following the Lord. And growing up in a Christian home meant you are in church, you are in service, you know what is right, and you are also interacting with other Christians in that community. I basically grew up in a campus setting, a university setting. And in that university setting, we had many people from different religions. And it was a tradition of our university to community to interact depending on whatever celebrations different religions were celebrating. So that was a bit of confusion in the faith because one time we are having a celebration of the Hindu, another time is a Muslim celebration. And my mother was very keen that we knew what we believed in. And so on campus we had a Sunday school. And so there was no church as such because the university community went to a Christian Union. But there was a Sunday school specific for the children growing up on campus. And I remember giving my life to Christ many times in that setting. But by the age of 10, I was able to know what that meant, that I didn't have to do it so many times. And so I grew up on knowing and knowing the importance of following Christ and serving Him. Really? Yes. Thank you.

Jenn [00:06:06]:
That's amazing. To have the heritage of faith is such a gift. Believing grandparents and a mom that was so intent that you knew Jesus and knew what you believed. That's so good.

Don [00:06:23]:
So you went to college. Did you get involved in the Christian Union on campus, or what kind of experience with your college years? Was that a good part of your faith journey or was it a struggle?

Carol [00:06:41]:
So I'll back up a bit after my. Those were my early years, and then I went to high school. And in high school, I was involved in the Christian Union. And then, unfortunately, during that first year of my high school, I lost my mother. And I love the Lord so much. I was 14 when I lost her. I'm the firstborn in a family of six. And it felt like such a disappointment. I felt that the Lord had not listened to my prayers for some reason. Growing up, I always prayed that God would keep my parents alive many years. And I felt he had not kept that promise. Yeah. So when I. In my first year of high school, my mother went to be with the Lord, and I was not happy with the Lord. And I struggled a bit with my faith. I was angry, really angry. But then I kept saying I did not have the courage to leave him, but I had the courage to have an intense conversation with the Lord for about a year, just asking why? Why did you Let this happen. And so during that time, it also brought a lot of financial struggle in the home because my mother had died of cancer and my parents had really spent a lot of money taking care. At that time, we didn't have a very good medical system. And my mother was a nurse. Even though she was a nurse, she still had to pay for her treatment. And so we were now needy for the first time, moving from a middle class family to almost having nothing. And I started praying and saying, dear Lord, I know I'm not happy with you. You took my mother, but now I am praying that you help me go through high school. And he answered that prayer. Different people came in and paid my high school fees. And one of the promise I made to the Lord, I said, lord, if you take me through this high school, I will serve you. I didn't know what I was saying, but I did. He did. Now I ended up in the university, my college life. And I knew exactly where I was going. I knew exactly I would be in the Christian Union. And that is where I will serve God. So you asked if I was involved in the Christian Union? Yes, intensely. I was involved. I was a leader. I love to lead Bible studies. And so I did. I was in the Bible study team. I led care groups and I was just involved in different parts, training of leaders in the universities. So I was intensely involved in the Christian Union. And I am what I am today because of that Christian Union involvement. Yeah.

Jenn [00:10:19]:
That's beautiful, Carol.

Don [00:10:20]:
Go ahead. Go ahead.

Jenn [00:10:22]:
Yeah, no, I'm just struck, Carol, just out of deep grief as a young woman, the wrestle with the Lord.

Carol [00:10:32]:
In.

Jenn [00:10:32]:
That place of darkness, in that place of deep sorrow. It seems that your, the faith that you have was so deeply impacted by that. I think as we journey with the Lord, it's so important that we have these moments to wrestle. And I imagine that that has impacted the way you walk with pastors. So I just want to. Just how God gave you a soft heart as a little girl is really beautiful to hear. Yeah.

Don [00:11:08]:
So in the. I think it's a fairly common experience in many countries that students and universities, they get involved with Christian Union or intervarsity, and men and women serve together and do things and take leadership. And there's no confusion or hesitation about women taking leadership because you're all students together. But then when you move into the church realm, sometimes it's a bit difficult for the women to continue to take leadership. Somehow some churches feel like men should only take the leadership. What was your experience as you went Past college. And I know you were some kind of a ministry where you were traveling all over the East Africa. Can you tell us about that and what it was like as a woman?

Carol [00:11:59]:
So after I finished, I trained to be a teacher. So my first degree was a Bachelor of education in arts, English and Literature. And when I was finishing university college, my father knew I'd go to teach. And then I knew I was going to serve the Lord because I had made a promise. I did not know where I was going to serve Him. And so I was just waiting, I literally sat and waited for God to say where I'm going. And then one time someone from the Fellowship of Christian Unions, which is the umbrella body here for Christian Union, called and said, carol, can we have a fellowship? And I knew what that call was. And he said, would you consider to serve God in short term missions in student ministry? And I say, yes, of course. But then I have a hurdle. I need to ask my father if he can allow me to do this. And so I asked my father and he was not going to take it. He said, you can't do this. He thought I was not well. He said, you're becoming fanatical. Why would you finish? We have struggled to this point. And then you want to go and serve God. What is that? You can serve God anywhere. You don't have to abandon everything and go and serve God. And he made sure I had gone through counseling, proper counseling, and I was a very obedient child. I obeyed, I did the counseling. And the counselor told him, just leave your daughter to go and serve God. That's what she wants to do. Amazing. So he accepted and I went and I served with a student ministry. My work was what I loved most, to nurture the student leaders in the university, those who are involved in the Christian Union, to teach them in discipleship, leadership, mentorship, Bible study. And I had a good time. So I basically knew I am headed for ministry. When that time was over, for short term missions, I was ready to train for it. The tradition in our country that time was you go to train for ministry when you're older, after retirement. And I said, no, I want to serve the Lord when I'm young, so I need to find training. And so I didn't know where I was going, I didn't have money, so I know I need to go and trade. And I didn't know where to go. And my team leader one day came and he said, Carol, can we have tea? You know, and I said, yes, we can have tea. That is A call for can we talk? And we went and had tea. It was somewhere after Christian Union meeting. We sat and he said, what next? After Focus? And I said, I don't know. I think it is school, but I don't have money and my father will not hear of it. And he said, if you got a scholarship, would you go? And I said, yes, of course. And he said, here are the letters for you to apply to go to theological training and scholarship is provided. And I was like, God, you work in interesting ways. Just seems like my work is to sit and wait and then you. You bring it, you know. And so he. I went home. He asked me to go back home to talk to my father. Of course I did. And this time my father was very happy. And I went. I reported back to the Nairobi Evangelical Graduate School of Theology then. And I was one of the young people coming on campus in a theological school. And I think most people were about four of us. And most people are thinking, what are these young people doing in a theological college? The rest of them were older with families and who are single. That was another factor. So that's how God has led me. I finished while I was still there. I want to connect to the question you asked. When we finished two years of my theological training, a pastor from the Nairobi Baptist Church came and asked, can we have lunch? And now I'm too familiar with, can we have tea? Can we have lunch? I know the Lord is about to speak something. And the pastor met me with an elder from the church. I had never been to that church, but my team leader was an elder in that church, but he was not the one calling. And in this cup of. In this lunch, they asked me, have you ever considered to work in a church? I said, no, never. I have not considered to work in the church. I do not want to work in a church. I want to think, train people, pastors and other people who want to serve God, but I do not want to be the one being there. And he said, think about it and pray about it. And I thought, I'm not even thinking about it. This one is clear.

Don [00:18:01]:
It's clear.

Carol [00:18:03]:
And so I waited for a few months. And I remember the day when I went to give my response. And my response was, no, I'm not coming. No. And that is the day I started work. Because after I went to say no, he said, just try you do it for a few months and see how it goes. And when I served in the church.

Don [00:18:26]:
You wouldn't take no for an answer.

Carol [00:18:28]:
It was the best the best. The best experience. I served with the adult ministry. And in that adult ministry, I specifically served with the training of leaders and establishing the small group Bible studies. And I loved it. I was in a good space. Yeah. So how did I end up where I am here today? That time was before I got married. Then we got married and left the city to go to the countryside. My husband was working with a different ministry then. Then when we were. We did two years and was supposed to come back to the city. I was still serving in the church. I would travel back and one day I look at a poster on the notice board and I see a ministry looking for women leader. And so that was my other ministry. I went to and I applied. They did an interview. They took me in. But then there was a promise to go back and work in the church. So I went back and said, oh, I need to keep. I told them I need to keep this promise to work in the church. And they said, we have no problem. You work in the church. You work in the. It was a non governmental organization. And what were they training leaders in? Peace and reconciliation and leadership development. And I'm like, I'm in. So I worked two jobs. I worked in the church and worked with that organization. And in 2014, I felt my body, my spirit, saying, it is over, it is done. I was tired, I think.

Don [00:20:25]:
Can you explain a bit more, Carol?

Carol [00:20:27]:
Yes.

Don [00:20:28]:
Can you explain a bit more what you did? Because during that. Those years you traveled a lot.

Carol [00:20:34]:
Yes, during those years, I call it, I lived in a suitcase. I traveled. There are times I would just pick one suitcase in the airport and exchange it with another one and go to another trip. My organization worked in east and Central Africa. My work was in Kenya. And once in a while we would go out. But in Kenya, we had had peace for many years, but for some reason in this time, it became a bit turbulent. We had election violence, we had communities fighting. And so we were intervening in those conflicts. And so those travels were not easy because you also. You're not going to safe space. Right. You're going to conflict areas. And so there was a lot of traveling. And as the Lord gave me children, we would travel with the children and leave them in a safe town. And then I would go into the conflict area. So I think with time, the body was tired. I needed a change. And so it took a very long time. I loved it. I loved to see communities being reconciled. I love to see what God was doing with the churches. I loved to see the women, which was my initial Docket. The women just coming together, doing projects, putting bread on their table, just making a big difference in their communities. I loved to see people in very different religions coming together and reconciling, but my body said no, I was tired. And so 2014, I stepped out. The day I said I did my last assignment, it was at the coastal strip of the Work the country. I drove and went to meet my husband in a meeting they were having. It was a retreat, maybe like the one we are having, for an organization called Africa Rural Trainers, which I had been involved in. You know, just praying and knowing what was going on and seeing the rural pastors being trained. But I hadn't been deeply involved, but my husband was. And as I sat there in that retreat, you know, I'm feeling like, oh, Lord, it's done. I'm on holiday now. They were wrestling with something and wondering, should we go on or should we not go on? And I said, you should go on. The training of pastors is needed. You really need to go on. And that's what happened. Then I asked them, what are you struggling with? Can I help? And that is how I am here today, many years later. Yeah. I said, can I help? And I'm thinking I need to stop talking because I don't know what I'm saying. And so for a while, from that day, I volunteered to be the general manager of Africa Rural Trainers. It works across the country. We have now 600 pastors in training this year. We have trained a thousand pastors in the past, and those pastors, we trained them for three years in Bible and theology and leadership, and they go to train. They volunteer when they graduate. Some of them, we choose the ones that are called to do the work, and they take others in the training. And I've seen such beautiful transformation as they learn to interpret God's word correctly, because most of them are in ministry. They keep telling me this is how they do it, you know, open the Bible, the Word, you see, that's what you preach, and you get very tired sometimes. So I have seen God do good things, great things.

Jenn [00:25:17]:
Yeah, but wait, Carol, you said you were very tired, your body's very tired. And. And then he went to this retreat, and then you heard the need.

Carol [00:25:28]:
What happened? What did you.

Jenn [00:25:29]:
What did the Lord put in your heart? Because you had to have been. There's an encounter, a personal encounter with the Lord in this moment. For you.

Carol [00:25:39]:
Remember, I said I was tired, but I loved the work.

Carol [00:25:44]:
And in my mind at that point, I thought, no, we cannot close the work we have to keep going. So what is it I can do? I did not know it was a lot of work. They said, oh, we would like someone to help with administration. I'm like, administration. That I can do while I rest.

Don [00:26:07]:
You're a gifted administrator.

Jenn [00:26:10]:
I think the Holy Spirit was.

Carol [00:26:14]:
Until I started. And I said, oh, my goodness. It is much more than what I began for. But I think also the joy of a new assignment.
Be more flexible, that would not involve me going to war torn spaces. Yeah, I think that was refreshing.

Jenn [00:26:40]:
That's so good, Carol.

Carol [00:26:41]:
Yeah.

Jenn [00:26:42]:
Yeah. He renewed you and strengthened you and gave you fresh vision because I see your face, you're just, you know, I see such joy on your face as you describe this shift into this ministry. And yeah, it's beautiful.

Don [00:27:02]:
And when I first met you a couple years ago, when you're talking about this season of extensive travel and your husband Nelson was. Had a pretty major responsibility as well. Then when you shifted to this current role, you didn't have to travel as much. And then he started traveling all the way. What's it been like in your marriage, in your parenting when at least one of you is always on the road? How have you managed that?

Carol [00:27:35]:
I think we exchanged roles.

Don [00:27:38]:
Yes, we switched roles.

Carol [00:27:41]:
I was busy when our children were younger and he did more the bigger parental role of being there with the children or being my driver and coming alongside and many times being the babysitter because then he would come and take care of the baby and still do the training. And then now it's me training. You should see the first reaction the children had when I was home. They asked me, mom, is there something wrong? And I asked them, what is. Why do you say that? He said, you are not going anywhere. I said, now I'll be here, though. I still travel. But this is the difference. It is past travel. I can plan my travels. And now he became so busy, so busy. And for a long time I think I was a bit confused because I was not used to being at home and he's not there. And now we had. Yeah, we had changed roles, but I think now we're beginning to settle into. He has a new role. So he says, I'll not travel as much. But as we are talking right now, he is not even in the country. He has traveled.

Don [00:29:10]:
Yes. Wow. So can you just tell a bit more about how this pastoral training works? Because, I mean, you know, Nelson is now the provost of a major university and seminary, but you're not training people There you're training rural pastors so they don't have to leave their villages or their towns. How does it work that you can train these pastors at a distance? You're not using the Internet, I don't think. Right.

Carol [00:29:52]:
No.

Don [00:29:58]:
So just describe the system.

Carol [00:30:07]:
So the pastors who go to train in theological training, formal, have an education that allows them to go there. They may have some resources, they have time. The pastors we train fall in three categories. Most of them do not have that education, so they cannot qualify to train in a formal setting. And then we have. They also don't have time. They are the only pastors in their place. So. So they are taking care of that congregation. And then sometimes they don't have. They don't have time and they don't have the resources. So even the ones who qualify, they don't have the money to pay for that training. So how do we do this training? We mobilize many pastors, different denominations, in a space, and then we ask them to get a church, and then. They get a church where all the pastors come in. Where the pastors come in and. And do the training. So these pastors from different denominations, they meet one week in a month, Monday to Friday, and they do their training. They do this for three years, that six months. During this time, they are learning different skills. And so that is how we do the training. Volunteer trainers come to their space and they help them. They train them in the language they understand. That's why we are doing the translation in Swahili. They train. If they don't understand Swahili, the person who is training them speaks the language they speak so that they can understand. After three years, we graduated them and start a new group. So that's how we do it. And when they come together, some of these classes. Yeah.

Don [00:32:49]:
I was saying, when they come together, is it like 10 or 15 pastors from a local area or is it a larger group that comes together for the one week, once a month?

Carol [00:33:02]:
So mostly there would be like between 25 to. We've had classes up to about 80, so. 25 to 80. Wow, that's amazing.

Jenn [00:33:21]:
Carol, are there. Are they mostly the pastors? Are they mostly men that you're training?

Carol [00:33:28]:
Pardon?

Jenn [00:33:31]:
Are they mostly men that you're training or are there women pastors?

Carol [00:33:36]:
Things have changed. At the beginning, some places would be just men mostly, predominantly men. And then slowly, as the churches have opened up into ordination of and allowing the women into the pastoral space, and now we have women. It is still the different denominations have issues with it. But we have women coming. Some of them will come in as elders in the churches serving in the different ministries, worship children. But now we have women in the training. The context now in our country is that the space has opened up for both men and women to serve. But a few years back, when, for example, when I first did the ministry, the ministry of reconciliation, the space was mostly men. And there was always a debate about women in ministry, whether they should be there or not, whether they should. I remember my first theological theology course. There was an argument between the few of us. We were a few ladies in the class and many men. And there was an argument about whether the women should even be in the class.

Don [00:35:12]:
Right.

Carol [00:35:14]:
Because we had people who had come from very traditional. They are wondering, why are you here? You cannot lead a church.

Jenn [00:35:27]:
So as you imagine, like, you were young when you started theological training. Do you have. Are you seeing young women also being raised up in this way? What's.

Carol [00:35:40]:
I'm telling you, I see younger women, I love see women who are making that decision after high school and wanting to go into ministry, and they come straight to theological training. Because previously, those of us who had to do a first degree took a career and then come back later. But for the younger ones, now we see people finishing and saying, God has called me and I want to train for this ministry. And that's beautiful. It's amazing. Yeah.

Jenn [00:36:24]:
Is there a mentorship? I mean, they're so blessed to have you, Carol. Are there other mentors for the younger leaders coming up?

Carol [00:36:35]:
Is that. Yes, I think we've really, really grown. There is a lot of mentorship for younger women, older women holding the hands of younger women. Yeah. So there is a lot of that in the different churches, different ministry spaces. I remember a few years ago, we started a fellowship called Women of God in Theological Training. And that time it was just us. Nobody wanted to associate with us.

Jenn [00:37:14]:
Amazing.

Carol [00:37:15]:
And now we have many, many conferences to trainings, mentorships for women in ministry. And we. It's not just women supporting women. It is also men saying, let's be deliberate about the gifts necessary. Women.

Jenn [00:37:37]:
That's so good.

Carol [00:37:38]:
Yeah.

Jenn [00:37:39]:
That's so good. Yeah.

Don [00:37:44]:
As. As you look at the church. I've just been reflecting on my visits to Africa, and every time I go to Nairobi or down to Mombasa, I find dynamic churches with a lot of enthusiasm and a lot of energy and mission vision. As you look at the church, because you have wide exposure to lots of churches, especially rural churches, how is the health of the church? Do you feel it's going well?

Don [00:38:14]:
I mean, obviously you have a burden to train people, so they do a better job of leading. But how are things looking in Kenya and beyond in your saddle?

Carol [00:38:27]:
I think we have seasons, so sometimes they are very good seasons. One of my conflicts is I go to a good urban church, big church, with proper Bible training, and then the churches I minister into are not. They don't have that level of exposure. And so generally we are in a good space in terms of ministry and people being open to loving the Lord, serving the Lord and sharing the Lord with others. But sometimes we have other seasons, the seasons of misinformation, the season of. And this happens because of lack of training. And so once in a while, we'll have very bad things happening. Like a few years back at the cost we had somebody mislead many people into death by asking them to fast until the Lord came back. And children, women, they died, masses of them. So we sort of oscillate. But we are glad that the church is alert, alert to false teachers, teachings and sometimes cultic teachings. And we are able to address them more boldly now than before. But also the government has stepped in to say we will not let the citizens to be misled by church leaders. It's a good thing, but it's also a struggle because when you get regulated, then there are other things that come in. So we are in a better space. But in this better space, we have some real issues we are dealing with. Yeah.

Jenn [00:40:39]:
Carol, what is. I'm just curious, you know, these many years of ministry, so many different spaces, conflict zones, the urban setting, rural pastor settings. What. What encouragement have you been receiving? I mean, this from the Lord to keep going. What are you hearing from the Lord that keeps you going?

Carol [00:41:04]:
I will never leave you nor forsake you. Even though you pass through the valley of the shadow of death, I will be with you. You know, my staff and my rod will protect you. I think scripture is deep with encouragement that the Lord will be there. Honestly, there have been some tough times, and those tough times sometimes come from serving. Today we were having our devotion and part of it. We are talking about the wounds that people pick in ministry. And the assurance was that the good shepherd will be with you and will heal the wounds. And so the encouragement has been to see people come to the Lord to see. My major ministry is teaching, just to see the transformation that comes from teaching. When people know better and get to know the Lord for themselves, get to read scripture for themselves. A few years ago, when I served with the Alam ministry, there was a group of old women in the Maasai community. Maasai is one of the traditional communities in our country. And they came together and we started a literacy class. And these women, all they wanted to know was read how to read the Bible for themselves.

Jenn [00:42:45]:
Amazing.

Carol [00:42:45]:
And I always laughed because the class never graduated, because it became the engine that led the community through transformation. It became. They called it to the class, but it was the one that planned pastors trainings, discipleship meetings, community outreaches, children ministry. And it was called the class. It still goes on. And those women have brought in younger women and such things give me hope to just keep. But I think the greatest is know that the Lord is with me. The other one is God's people. I'm privileged to have mentors, and my husband and I have been privileged to have Christian mentors who speak into our lives. Those we can call and say, we are not making it. It is difficult. And they will say, we will pray. Some of them will say, just come and be here. Just be. Just be. Sleep, wake up as we pray, and you eat and get taken care of. And so those older people have been a source of encouragement in the Lord. And the third one is just to see the fruit of working and serving the Lord. You know, when I see a few of the people I mentored in the university years, in focus are pastors, and some of them are leading organizations. And I'm like, okay, I don't like the idea that I'm getting old, but I like the idea that my disciples have stayed with the Lord. They have stayed with the Lord, and they are serving him, and they are serving him in significant spaces. It's a joy. It's a joy to be in a meeting and somebody just says, oh, my mentor is here that time. I don't even remember what it is we did together. And they say, and my, My. The person who did this is in this room. It's. It's. It's a good thing. It's a good thing to say. See that? So those are my three things that keep me going.

Jenn [00:45:20]:
That's so good, Carol. I think that some of our listeners might just need to hear that encouragement today from you. You have stayed the course, but you have not done this alone. I hear that you talk about this connection with the older and younger generation, which I think is. Is so. It's a safe place to be when we're connected with each other in that way. It's so beautiful.

Don [00:45:49]:
As you think of, I don't know how old your children are, but some of them are still with you. But like, you're around AAU and students quite a bit now, what kind of message would you have for someone starting off in their 20s and looking ahead, saying, you know, what does God call me to do? What should I do with my life? What kind of wisdom would you offer for them?

Carol [00:46:17]:
What would I tell them? It was in my 20s that I made difficult decisions to serve the Lord. And those are years, important years. So what I would tell them is be deliberate in the decisions you make. Seek counsel, godly counsel as you make those decisions. When I was in my 20s, I used to ask, what is God's will for me? I don't remember any clarity about what God's will was for me. Still asking that question, what is God speaking for me? But I have had scripture guide me and I've had older people guide me into what is God's will for me. And so it's important to stay connected to those that have walked the path before.

Jenn [00:47:28]:
So good.

Carol [00:47:30]:
So that you're guided when you are, when you're doubting, you are guided when you read scripture and something doesn't make sense. Somebody who is older, who is able to interpret it better, can guide you. That's why I'm saying godly counsel. Because we could be in ungodly counsel. So godly counsel. So seek those and peers who cheer you up, those that you have the same calling. I was thinking about some of the young people when we were in our 20s, cheering each other to missions. The other day I discovered almost 90% of my friends. I met them on the mission field. We went to preach somewhere and we talked and exchanged numbers and we are friends today. Difference. And so what I would tell those of you who are younger find peers who you are aligned in your vision. What is it you want to do? Are you aligned? Are the people around you aligned? Because if they are not aligned, they will discourage you. In our 20s, when we finished college training and we needed to support raise in the next assignment, I remember people say, why are you staying there begging for money? You know, they are Christians, but they're asking, why are you begging? That means they don't understand the call in terms of supporting those who are serving the Lord. So if we had listened to those honestly, we wouldn't be here today. So I would say find those. But also in deep time, deep time of because in your tentacles you also find a lot of dilemmas. There are a lot of Crossroads. During those times, find someone, your pastor, an older person. Don't keep it yourself. Tell someone. Yeah, tell someone. So that. And, and prayer has been an anchor. Sometimes I write down my prayers. And even those, those years, I used to write, I used to talk to God like he was here. And I would tell him, God, you know, today I'm going to this discipleship meeting. This is the crisis in the meeting with the young people who are there, my age, what will I do? And I feel like the Lord would hear and answer me because he would take care of this situation. But also, I want to say something important. In your 20s, you're also making important decisions of who you will spend your lifetime with, who you will marry. Now, if you are going, if you are going to do ministry, you need to align yourself with somebody who is having the same call. If you marry somebody who is not interested in missions, you will not do missions. So choose wisely the person you will spend the rest of your life with, because this call will need support from someone who understands what you are doing. One of the people who wanted to marry me when I was younger was a nice Christian. He was a pastor's wife, I mean, a pastor's son. But he hated that I was in ministry, hated it. And he would tell me, he would say, I'm waiting for you to finish that assignment so that we can marry and you do something else. And I'm thinking, no, I'm not doing that. You are not supporting my calling.

Jenn [00:51:46]:
That's so good, Carol. I could listen. I was just text. I was writing those things down. I can tell that you are a mentor to many. The wisdom just flows from you. You and I could just. Yeah. What a gift you are to the many, many you walk with. But I'm excited about this podcast and that we can share you with a greater community. I, I having. You know, I just would say amen to everything you said and, and, and thank you. Thank you for being with us today, Carol. I mean, you, you've shared so much wisdom with us. And I, again, I wish we could have coffee.

Carol [00:52:32]:
We lived closer.

Jenn [00:52:33]:
I would just ask you so many questions because I'm involved in a similar, just ministry with younger leaders. I wonder, are there any. Yeah. This morning, I wonder, just today as you woke up and spent time with the Lord. Yeah. What is, what is something that you are. What encouragement are you carrying today?

Carol [00:53:00]:
Today when I woke up, I read the scripture from John 6:35. The Lord declared that I am the bread of life. And he also talks about that if you believe you will not thirst again and if you come to him, you will not be hungry. And I was really encouraged. He's the bread of life. And also if I'm with him, I'll not thirst. And that was some such an encouragement. And I went before him and said, lord, sometimes there are needs in my life that I want people to satisfy and they will not. So I will always be hungry and thirsty. Allow me to always come to you so that you can meet my deep needs, the deep needs of my life, so that I will not be hungry because you are the bread of life and are not be thirsty because I believe in you. And so that was my greatest encouragement this morning. And that he's a good chef.

Carol [00:54:15]:
He will look for his sheep, whether they are scattered and he'll gather them. That is in Ezekiel 34. That was the other scripture I read. It talks so much about shepherds not taking good, taking care of the sheep. And he talks about what he will do when he will gather and bring them those sheep that are scattered. So that was my encouragement today.

Jenn [00:54:51]:
Thank you so much, Carol, for bringing your life, your heart, for sharing wisdom with us, for being with us today. And I know that our listeners of this podcast will be so deeply encouraged, as I know that Don and I have been. Thank you for being with us today.

Don [00:55:08]:
It's been great talking with you.

Carol [00:55:11]:
Thank you so much. It was such a pleasure being with you this evening, here this evening. Thank you for inviting me listening. God bless you.

Jenn [00:55:25]:
Yes, the Lord bless you, Carol, and your family.

Don [00:55:48]:
Thanks for listening to the Reflexio podcast. Make sure to rate and review us on your favorite podcasting platform.

Jenn [00:55:54]:
You can subscribe to our newsletter, join the discussion on YouTube and find further information about this episode in the show Notes below. See you next time.