A Hard Obedience in Different Directions

00:27.49
Don
So welcome, Jen, to this new edition of Reflexio. It's sort of fun. We got two Jens in this call. so So just to start off, introduce our listeners to little of your story, how God called you into mission.

00:49.15
Don
you know You've told me in the past a little bit more detail, but just sort of to give a context before we hone in on some other topics. So go for it.

00:57.84
Jen Oshman
Sure, absolutely. Well, thank you so much for having me on this podcast. It's a joy um to join with both of you in encouraging the global church. I did not grow up in a Christian home.

01:08.58
Jen Oshman
I'm from Denver, Colorado, and my parents divorced when I was eight. And it was after that that my mom started to seek for the truth and just seek for support and a community and encouragement. And thankfully, by God's grace, um he directed her to a sweet church where we heard the gospel and we were received by our new family of faith. And so um my faith really took hold for myself in college after I left home and left behind um a pretty difficult and tumultuous um upbringing with two divorced parents um who lived in two different places. But i I lived one week with my mom, one week with my dad from the ages of eight to 18. And so it was kind of a um chaotic childhood. But when I went went away to college um and I was on my own and in one location for the duration of the year, the Lord really just

01:59.66
Jen Oshman
drew me closer to himself through through a really difficult season of grief and sorrow. And I think kind of just processing ah what had been. ah But thankfully, through that valley and that dark season, the Lord just proved faithful and tender and compassionate.

02:16.12
Jen Oshman
And I sensed in my complete surrender to the Lord at that time that he was calling me into overseas missions. It was kind of a ah ah one in the same, a surrender a full surrender to the Lordship of Christ, as well as a sense that he was going to ask me to go overseas in some way.

02:35.29
Jen Oshman
um i had met my boyfriend, who's now my husband, um at that time as well. and He providentially was already in seminary and considering ministry himself. And so um As we sort of became more unified, we we both sensed that call to ministry overseas together, which is really sweet.

02:54.86
Jen Oshman
um We married pretty young and finished seminary and went overseas and served first in Japan with an organization called Cadence International.

02:55.05
Jenn Chen
Thank you.

03:04.64
Jen Oshman
where um my husband pastored a church for American military members. And we shared the gospel with those who were in all branches of the military and their spouses and their children, those who were single.

03:15.04
Jen Oshman
It was a really sweet and vibrant ministry in Okinawa, Japan.

03:17.01
Don
All right.

03:18.91
Jen Oshman
It was right after 9-11. So you can imagine people were asking really existential questions and it made for a really fruitful ministry.

03:24.71
Jenn Chen
Thank

03:26.24
Jen Oshman
um But my husband in particular was always burdened for the Czech Republic. He had spent a semester of college in the Czech Republic as a new Christian himself and had seen the cathedrals and the crucifixes and the evidences of a faith that was no longer really present. The architecture was there, and the but the faith of the people was not. um You may know that the Czech Republic is one of the world's most secular nations.

03:52.12
Jen Oshman
um Less than one half of 1% profess Christ. And so the Czech, having been formerly communist, was... quite um uniformly atheist. And that was something that sort of haunted my husband over the years. So as we were seeing this great and sweet fruit of Americans overseas, um we continued to feel the weight of the darkness in the Czech Republic. And so we made a change, joined Pioneers International and pursued church planting amongst the Czechs in Brno, Czech Republic.

04:21.74
Jen Oshman
um We had four children in tow at that point.

04:21.69
Don
Just before you go any further on that, just a personal connection, our home church here in Houghton, one of the former associate pastors has been a missionary in the Czech Republic for the last 20 years, and he's just come back.

04:25.53
Jen Oshman
Yeah. Yeah.

04:38.08
Don
They're still overseeing their work at the Wesleyan Church.

04:38.61
Jen Oshman
a

04:41.33
Don
So they've talked about how they do church planting there. It's, yeah, we've sent over there to reach, like, soccer teams and things.

04:45.59
Jen Oshman
Yes.

04:48.55
Don
So it's...

04:49.34
Jen Oshman
Yes. Yes. So thank God for their ministry.

04:50.41
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

04:52.13
Don
out.

04:52.47
Jen Oshman
Yeah. So anyway, we had four girls abruptly. I'm sure we'll talk about this at some point, but we were but abruptly called off the mission field. um What felt very premature to us um as the as the doors of our new church plant were just opening, um the Lord asked us to come back and take care of my dad who was dying from Alzheimer's and dementia. And so we relocated to the United States nine years ago, and the Lord allowed our family to plant a church here in suburban America, which is somewhere I I swore I would never be, but here I am nine years later and the church is eight years old and it's a sweet, it's actually a pretty sweet blessing. The Lord has been faithful to us on three continents and I'm i'm humbled by that and grateful for that.

05:35.87
Jenn Chen
Jen, there's so so much in what you just said. there's and and as i felt like we were just hovering at like 30,000 and just gave us a big aerial view.

05:44.11
Don
Yeah.

05:45.74
Jenn Chen
And I'm struck at... the courage to step out, coming out of a family that was so, was painful and holding so much grief, but God just giving you such a heart.

06:00.26
Jenn Chen
He gave you his heart and preserves that all these years. So I just want to, I see that even as we're here this morning.

06:09.88
Jenn Chen
You know, I think as Donna and I were preparing for this podcast, I was thinking about just a little bit of the notes that Donna had written about your life. And I thought, You know, for all of us that serve overseas, one thing that we hold really closely, it's the kind of things that keep us up at night, is what if we got that phone call?

06:29.53
Jenn Chen
Or what about family back in this, back where are our passport country, which the longer we live overseas, the less it feels like home because we've built this new home, but we're holding it.

06:41.27
Jen Oshman
you

06:42.05
Jenn Chen
It's a stuff that, you know, it's in the quiet of the night, we wonder. And you got that phone call. And I'm just curious, you know, for our listeners, I think this is a way that I think no matter where anybody's from universally, they, know, we have, we all have a conflicted relationship with family. can be very close or it can be really hard, but nonetheless it is family.

07:06.03
Jenn Chen
So what was it like for you? And yeah, what what was going on in your life at the time and to receive that call and how did you make that decision?

07:18.26
Jen Oshman
Yeah.

07:18.22
Jenn Chen
with your husband and for yourself?

07:21.90
Jen Oshman
Yes. So we actually received that call twice and responded differently each time. So I'd love to share the first time with you briefly.

07:29.13
Jenn Chen
Yeah.

07:31.02
Jen Oshman
um When we moved first to Japan, we took a newborn baby with us.

07:31.01
Jenn Chen
Yeah.

07:34.22
Jen Oshman
I birthed two more and we adopted a fourth. And it was during the course of our adoption process, um we had brought our daughter home to Japan from Thailand. And the the immigration process to the United States was extremely complicated.

07:49.04
Jen Oshman
i won't go into the details as to why, but she had to live with us overseas for three years before she could be immigrated to the United States.

07:49.93
Jenn Chen
Wow. Mm-hmm.

07:55.50
Don
Wow.

07:58.70
Jen Oshman
And at the very beginning of that three years, we got the call that my husband's mom had been diagnosed with ALS. and um her dad had passed away from ALS a few years prior.

08:06.10
Jenn Chen
wow

08:12.85
Jen Oshman
And so it was a crushing phone call because we knew what ALS looked like and we also had the realization that Mark's family carries the genetic form of ALS, which is you know another topic but crushing in and of itself.

08:22.08
Jenn Chen
Wow.

08:26.38
Jen Oshman
um The reality of our adoption then was that we could not come home to care for my mother-in-law. In fact, we couldn't even visit at the same time. My husband and I had to take turns visiting her because we couldn't bring our adopted daughter into the United States.

08:38.91
Jenn Chen
a

08:42.72
Jen Oshman
And so um that was incredibly painful and grievous. We were close to my mother-in-law. She herself was a Christian. um She had a faithful, sweet husband and also my husband's sister and her family.

08:56.51
Jen Oshman
And so she had a lot of really good care, which was a relief.

08:59.93
Don
Thank you.

09:00.87
Jen Oshman
um You know, it was it was a huge consolation to us that she was cared for deeply by her her church family and my husband's family. And so she actually, in God's providence, passed away the very week we received our daughter's visa to come back to the United States.

09:18.58
Jenn Chen
Oh my goodness.

09:18.70
Jen Oshman
And so we totally missed the opportunity to care for her. So um i say I share that because I think in many of our stories for overseas workers, sometimes we do not have a choice.

09:28.73
Jenn Chen
Yes.

09:30.06
Jen Oshman
And the Lord has worked circumstances out that you just have to rest in the reality that the Lord hasn't written a story that way.

09:30.68
Jenn Chen
Yeah.

09:40.45
Jen Oshman
Now um with my dad, um you know, growing up, he was an alcoholic and his home was not one of peace. And um providentially, again, he was he lived in Parker, Colorado, and it's a suburb of Denver.

09:56.15
Jen Oshman
And so I'd spend a week in Denver and a week in Parker. And because of the darkness that was for me in Parker, Colorado, I told the Lord, i will go anywhere on this entire planet and do anything that you ask of me, but

10:06.61
Jenn Chen
Wow.

10:08.48
Jen Oshman
do not ask me to go to Parker, Colorado. That is the one place I just don't think I can handle it. Please don't ask. And so two years into our journey in the Czech Republic, we got that call that that you're asking about.

10:22.43
Jen Oshman
And it was difficult because it was a call to come care for. And it was from the health and human services of the county that my dad was living in. My dad was alone.

10:31.42
Jenn Chen
wow

10:32.58
Jen Oshman
he's a um He was an only child, divorced, and and estranged from everybody in his life. And so he was living a very isolated life. And um I did not know he was as sick as he was because phone calls just didn't do it justice, his condition.

10:49.09
Jen Oshman
um So Health and Human Services found me overseas, and that's who placed the call to me.

10:52.78
Jenn Chen
Wow.

10:53.63
Jen Oshman
And and they said, um your dad is in such a condition that we cannot legally leave him in this state.

10:54.12
Don
Wow.

11:01.91
Jen Oshman
He has to have a guardian. So it either has to be you know who do you who's going to be his guardian or is he going to become a ward of the state?

11:10.47
Jenn Chen
Wow.

11:10.87
Jen Oshman
And um my dad was not a believer. he had rejected the gospel ever since I had received it. and And he he literally had no one. um And we also didn't have a good relationship.

11:23.60
Jen Oshman
And so it was and and and excruciating decision leave.

11:28.05
Jenn Chen
my goodness.

11:28.39
Jen Oshman
to said to leave behind the progress that we had made in the two years.

11:32.85
Jenn Chen
Mm-hmm.

11:33.36
Jen Oshman
We had plunked our kids down in public school. We had said, you've got to learn this terribly difficult language, um make a massive transition from life in on a tropical island in Okinawa, Japan, to a pretty gray, cold place in Central Europe. And they had they had worked hard and they had given so much. And so...

11:51.74
Jen Oshman
to, uh, to uproot all of the progress that we had made in our, in our community and in our Czech church and what was to be, um, is probably one of the biggest griefs of my life.

12:02.97
Jenn Chen
um

12:03.48
Jen Oshman
Um, second to probably my dad dying outside of, of faith in Christ. So we came home and we, um, we spent several years caring for him and he, he passed away, rejecting the gospel.

12:16.61
Jen Oshman
Um, but in that season, Very unexpectedly, the Lord allowed us to plant a church here in the U.S., which has been another consolation. And so I don't know that I have wisdom about that second phone call, except to say that knowing that my dad was outside of Christ and knowing that he had no one providing care for him, just, we felt overwhelmingly, well, I guess I shouldn't say overwhelmingly.

12:36.98
Jenn Chen
um um

12:43.74
Don
It's clear.

12:45.14
Jen Oshman
The scales were tipped such that we became convinced that that was the right thing to do. And i would love ah tell you that we did it with joy.

12:56.17
Jen Oshman
and I would love to tell you that joy came, but neither is true. It was, it was just hard obedience and it was never, it was never easy.

13:10.22
Don
How long did you care for before he passed away?

13:13.50
Jen Oshman
Um, yeah, you know, the crazy thing is, so he lived, i think, four years. Um, he was only 75 and his only ailment was Alzheimer's.

13:19.73
Jenn Chen
wow

13:24.66
Jen Oshman
So we actually anticipated him to live much longer.

13:31.80
Jen Oshman
But ironically, when we were back in Europe, serving with PI short term, just for a few weeks, visiting some of our workers there, he um got sepsis.

13:44.37
Jen Oshman
And he actually passed away when I was in Europe.

13:47.96
Don
Thank you.

13:48.11
Jenn Chen
Oh my goodness.

13:48.22
Jen Oshman
And so, you know, the whole story, just even with my mother-in-law and with my dad, you know, it's the Lord who gives life and it's the Lord who takes life.

13:50.66
Jenn Chen
Wow, Jen.

13:53.87
Jenn Chen
Mm.

13:56.46
Jen Oshman
And you as much as we tried to write that script and to dot all the I's and cross all the T's and and and do it just right with our parents, you know, is ultimately the Lord's timeline.

13:56.87
Jenn Chen
Mm.

14:09.20
Jen Oshman
um And i think that I think that the reason i can fall asleep at night after staying awake and pondering it, as you said, Jen, is because I know that it is the Lord who who will do it. It's he's the one who determines when and where we should live, right?

14:26.46
Jen Oshman
And that not ultimately in my hands.

14:32.66
Jenn Chen
Thanks. Thank you, Jen. That's, yeah. How would you you know navigating four years in such a dark, I mean, just the unknown, right?

14:45.07
Jenn Chen
If you knew it was four years, if you knew, we knew the timing, perhaps maybe we could endure a different way, but you're in you're in the dark and you're raising a family, you're grieving the loss of a life that contained dreams that you had for not only your family, but for a people, a country that know the Lord.

14:55.64
Jen Oshman
Yeah.

15:08.69
Jenn Chen
As you look back on that season, how is God near to you?

15:13.99
Jen Oshman
Mm-hmm.

15:13.94
Jenn Chen
How did you experience him?

15:18.01
Jen Oshman
Yeah, I think it's another sort of, even like the story with my mother-in-law, you know, these were circumstances that we just could not control, that were just in the hands of our God.

15:19.22
Don
Thank you.

15:28.97
Jen Oshman
And so while that can be at times frustrating, it also can be just a huge relief because you're like, well, this is it. This is what has come to pass.

15:38.37
Jenn Chen
Mm.

15:39.23
Jen Oshman
and um And so how can we how can I walk with God in this? What is God asking me to do?

15:45.93
Jenn Chen
Mm. Mm.

15:46.82
Jen Oshman
Or how is he shaping me? Or how is he present and faithful in it? And I will say, you know, we served overseas for 15 years. That's all our girls had known. And one thing that the Lord really revealed to me upon our return to the U.S.

15:55.62
Don
Wow.

16:00.38
Jen Oshman
is that my identity was really wrapped up in being an overseas worker. And I think that my faith in the Lord and my identity a as and as an overseas worker were so intermingled that I didn't really know who I was.

16:13.70
Jenn Chen
Yeah.

16:15.04
Jen Oshman
And I didn't know, and didn't know what I had, you know, what what my task was now. It was just a very, it was a few years of just sitting before the Lord and going, what I supposed to do here? Like, this is the exact place I did not want to be.

16:35.34
Jen Oshman
This is, um you know, and after having been overseas for 15 years, I confess I had a prejudiced view of ministry in the United States.

16:35.38
Jenn Chen
yeah

16:45.06
Don
Wow.

16:45.14
Jen Oshman
I had um

16:45.44
Don
Wow.

16:45.68
Jenn Chen
Is

16:46.31
Jen Oshman
i had a i had prejudged what it would look like based on our friends that we had gone to seminary with and who had served in the American church and had gone through really, really difficult circumstances, many of whom were no longer in ministry and no longer following Jesus.

16:58.19
Jenn Chen
he?

17:01.16
Jenn Chen
Is he?

17:01.35
Jen Oshman
My thought from overseas was like, I never want to go back there.

17:01.83
Jenn Chen
Is

17:04.25
Jen Oshman
You know, this is, that's where Christians go to die.

17:05.19
Jenn Chen
he?

17:07.08
Jen Oshman
and So um the Lord, so we ended up just doing what we did overseas in the American suburbs.

17:16.94
Jenn Chen
Mm.

17:18.39
Jen Oshman
And that's all our family knew how to do. ah Our family only knew you invite people over for dinner and you ask them if they want to read the Bible.

17:25.43
Don
Bye.

17:25.83
Jen Oshman
And that's the weirdest behavior possible in the community that I live in.

17:25.97
Jenn Chen
Mm.

17:29.100
Jen Oshman
This is an affluent, self-sufficient suburb.

17:30.100
Jenn Chen
Mm.

17:34.60
Jen Oshman
where people write their own story, it would seem, you know, that they there's not a huge need for God. People come to Colorado to ski and to dictate their future. So to say, hey, do you want to come meet somebody at the library or the grocery store and say, do you want to come to my house for dinner? And we're going to read the Bible.

17:53.13
Jen Oshman
It was ridiculous. And remember just being like, because here is also quite secular. ah i think 4% of my community attends church on Sunday.

18:04.52
Jen Oshman
It's a very unchurched population. um So i would I would be quick to be like, hey, we're we're not a cult. We're just Christians and we love the Bible. So if you would like to come to dinner and people came, that's the shocker is they they just came.

18:17.24
Don
They said, sure.

18:17.23
Jenn Chen
it.

18:19.92
Jen Oshman
And before we knew it, we four or five, six months of like 60 people coming into our living room for dinner and Bible study and a church was born.

18:19.83
Jenn Chen
and love it

18:30.76
Jen Oshman
So the Lord just, he was so kind to do that, especially when i when I, you know, just being honest about it, me being really reluctant about all of it.

18:40.91
Jen Oshman
The Lord was like, I'll build my church.

18:41.12
Jenn Chen
Yeah, of course. Of course.

18:44.47
Jen Oshman
I'll build it

18:44.57
Jenn Chen
Yeah. I love that.

18:48.15
Don
You know, you you did this church plant among service workers in Japan, servicemen, and then started off in the Republic, Czech Republic.

18:48.68
Jenn Chen
I love that. Yeah.

19:00.89
Don
As you did this in the States, what were some of the kind of things that surprised you and delighted to you in the way that God did things in this church plant?

19:07.97
Jenn Chen
Hmm. Hmm.

19:11.40
Jen Oshman
I have been so surprised by the depth of relationship that has happened here. I i really thought that was not possible.

19:16.81
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

19:18.81
Jen Oshman
I had experienced such deep relationships amongst expats and just, you know, the, the pace of life here is hectic. People are very busy. People are very self-sufficient.

19:30.92
Jen Oshman
Um, there is a lot of isolation. And so i was convinced that people would not be transparent. Um, and relate to one another deeply and cry out to God.

19:43.61
Jen Oshman
And they are, they do. um the it just i feel like the Lord was like, I'm at work everywhere. what What is wrong with you, Jen?

19:50.89
Jenn Chen
Yeah.

19:51.100
Jen Oshman
Of course I'm at work there.

19:52.87
Jenn Chen
Yeah.

19:53.76
Jen Oshman
you know You think that I just like don't go into that community?

19:54.07
Jenn Chen
Yes. Yeah.

19:57.40
Jen Oshman
I do.

19:58.67
Jenn Chen
Yeah.

19:58.91
Jen Oshman
So I've been shocked, honestly shocked in the best way that the Lord is faithful even here.

20:00.83
Jenn Chen
Yeah.

20:08.94
Jenn Chen
Yeah, that's so good, Jen. I think it's easy to, think you alluded to it, to even idolize, we've all done it, the the being an overseas worker.

20:19.90
Jenn Chen
And I think there's idealism and their there's like, I'm going to change the world that propels us out. And I think the Lord is kind to form our hearts and get at all of the parts of us.

20:33.44
Jenn Chen
He wants our whole being.

20:34.38
Jen Oshman
Yeah.

20:34.97
Jenn Chen
He wants our whole heart to love him.

20:37.06
Jen Oshman
Yes.

20:36.98
Jenn Chen
And we're not just workers. We're not just helpers in the kingdom.

20:43.79
Jen Oshman
Mm-hmm.

20:43.79
Jenn Chen
We're his kids. We're his kids.

20:45.55
Jen Oshman
Yes.

20:45.60
Jenn Chen
But he doesn't waste anything. i'm struck just, you're talking about just inviting people for dinner and saying the Bible. It feels like that's what we've done in Seattle.

20:55.100
Jenn Chen
You know, people think we're so odd, but they come because the cry of the human heart is to be known.

21:01.58
Don
Yeah.

21:01.83
Jen Oshman
Yeah.

21:02.18
Jenn Chen
Right. And people don't do come over for dinner anymore in the church or anywhere.

21:03.50
Jen Oshman
Yep.

21:06.85
Jen Oshman
no

21:07.58
Jenn Chen
No one does that. But that feels normal. And it it sounds like it's very much a way you live. And I love that you're there, Jen. And that community is so blessed that you're, yeah, that you're running around inviting them to dinner. It's perfect.

21:25.21
Jenn Chen
It's so great.

21:25.51
Jen Oshman
I do feel, yeah, I feel like the Lord, he's just so kind, you know, even when I doubt and kick and scream and, say I don't want to do it.

21:35.22
Jenn Chen
Mm-hmm.

21:35.43
Jen Oshman
He's just lavish and he's generous and I'm so thankful for his character.

21:37.81
Jenn Chen
Mm. It's so good.

21:42.74
Jenn Chen
Mm. It's so good.

21:45.13
Don
you referenced earlier that it took you a few years once you got back to figure out who you were, like you're no longer overseer, because of who am I, what do I do?

21:45.63
Jenn Chen
Yeah.

21:58.29
Don
Is that part of what led you into the ministry to women you've been doing so much in the last years? Can you sort of tell how that developed and tell us about it? Because it sounds pretty amazing what God's doing.

22:10.96
Don
I don't know, tell us how how he spoke to you and that led into a wider ministry to women.

22:15.39
Jen Oshman
where Sure. Well, I think my question has always been whether it was in Japan as a new mom, um or it was in the Czech Republic, or it's in back here in Colorado, my question has always been, Lord, what have you given me?

22:26.63
Jenn Chen
hmm

22:31.26
Jen Oshman
And what do you want me to do with it? And I think that is a missional mindset of just like, okay, well, you've given me this nationality, this kind of passport, this kind of access, this kind of theological education, this home, this setting, this community, you know, how how should I use these things?

22:48.33
Jen Oshman
Because i i I know they're not for me to just sit still on them, but they're me to use to share your love. Yeah. um And so when we came back to the States and it was like, okay, well, I'm not, I no longer have that overseas thing that I've had for 15 years. What do I have here that the Lord would like me to use? What has he given me that I can give back, that I can use to proclaim who he is?

23:14.30
Jen Oshman
And I've always been a writer. i was ah the editor of my high school newspaper. My mom was an English teacher and my dad was a lawyer. So though they did not pass on a faith to me, they did pass on ah communication to me. Words were important. And I'm thankful for being raised in a household where words mattered.

23:31.31
Jen Oshman
um And so... I had always been writing from the mission field. I'm sure you guys can relate to that. Writing home, telling the story, ah writing newsletters, writing a blog, i just constantly wanting to share what God is doing.

23:44.24
Jen Oshman
And over the years, that writing also included kind of a discipleship-oriented kind of writing, asking asking and answering questions of the faith, offering, you know, if I was if i was teaching the Bible, then i was I was sort of offering what I was learning via the written word.

24:01.14
Jen Oshman
And so I just kept writing as I, as we came back to the U S just decided to keep, that's one thing I have. I still have my computer. I still have words. um I still have God's story to share.

24:11.63
Jen Oshman
So I'll keep writing.

24:11.79
Jenn Chen
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

24:13.51
Jen Oshman
And um that sort of happened in tandem with our church plant where I was choosing to you know teach in my church as well. um And the writing started to get picked up just by in God's kindness, the writing was picked up by websites and outlets and ah That eventually led to a relationship with a literary agent and then a relationship with some publishers. And um so over the past nine years of being here, i think five years ago is when my first book was published.

24:41.93
Jen Oshman
and And there's been four since, and I'm turning in three more books books this year that'll come out next year. So the writing has really been a surprise. I thought we would be overseas forever.

24:50.48
Jenn Chen
hmm hmm hmm

24:51.71
Jen Oshman
I didn't think I would be an author um and a you know a speaker and a a teacher here in the U.S., But the Lord just opened those doors and said, come on in. And by faith I did. And so that has been ah joy for sure, a surprise and a joy.

25:07.88
Don
And if the book's been about women, ministry, some of them.

25:12.05
Jen Oshman
um Definitely with women in mind. One of the four is written for the church. It's called Welcome, and it's about the radical welcome of Jesus and how we ought to then welcome the stranger in.

25:23.58
Jen Oshman
um But the other three are geared towards women and girls. And the three that I'm writing that will come out next year, ah two out of the three are are written with women in mind. So, you know, I'm the mom of four daughters. Yeah.

25:37.05
Jen Oshman
And I raised them in three different cultures, in three different Christian settings. So I think, and having not come out of a Christian home, and my husband didn't either, by the way, he also was first gen Christian.

25:50.91
Jen Oshman
So as newlyweds and as parents, we are always just asking that question of what does it mean to be a Christian spouse? What does it mean to be a Christian parent?

25:58.36
Jenn Chen
um um

25:59.50
Jen Oshman
What does it mean to be a Christian girl, a Christian mom? Um, And then seeing that play out in three different settings and disentangling culture from scripture, um i think is what has really driven me, is is the questions have driven me because I want to answer them well for myself. i want to answer them well for my daughters.

26:19.68
Jen Oshman
And want to answer them well for the women the Lord puts in my life. And so that curiosity, i think, and that just that lack of knowledge in my life has has driven me to study it from a theological perspective and a cultural perspective.

26:31.04
Jenn Chen
um

26:33.02
Jen Oshman
And then I've wanted to share it because I, in, especially back here in the U.S., I'm like, I kind of feel like maybe the American church doesn't know some of this or, or they're ignoring some of it or they're picking some of it and ignoring.

26:45.90
Jen Oshman
So I don't know. There's just coming back to the U S entering the fray of our kind of a weird conversation about gender and ministry that I didn't necessarily confront overseas.

26:47.36
Jenn Chen
see

26:55.45
Jen Oshman
Definitely compelled me to put pen to paper and, and say, you know, I just want to share the truth.

27:03.42
Jenn Chen
What is that sum of this that you feel like has been neglected, that you feel like you're, yeah, the Lord is highlighting and through your writing and stirring first in you and then highlighting through your writing?

27:14.54
Jen Oshman
Mm-hmm.

27:18.70
Jen Oshman
You know, i i ponder this a lot because I wonder why is there so much? it feels like there's a lot of infighting in the American church.

27:27.79
Jenn Chen
Mm-hmm.

27:29.11
Jen Oshman
And that was not something that we experienced for 15 years. Yeah.

27:33.46
Jenn Chen
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

27:34.38
Jen Oshman
the The Christians were in the minority in the places that we lived. And so we partnered with people across theological the theological spectrums in so many ways. Now, obviously, there was that first order, that things that were salvational issues where we saw eye to eye, especially if you were going to partner in ministry.

27:54.41
Jen Oshman
But on the mission field, I feel like you know those those things are are few and and rightly few based on the scriptures.

28:02.02
Jenn Chen
Yeah.

28:02.97
Jen Oshman
And then there's so many other things that we can debate and just hold in good faith and think you know give each other the benefit of the doubt and go, well, that's just not how I see it, but that's okay because we're both in Christ, so let's do this thing together.

28:06.05
Jenn Chen
Yeah.

28:12.33
Jenn Chen
Right.

28:16.27
Jen Oshman
And we did that for 15 years. And then we came back to the States and was like, well, if you believe this about baptism or women or the end times or whatever, then we can't partner ministry.

28:22.59
Jenn Chen
Yeah.

28:28.30
Jen Oshman
um And so that I think was shocking to me. Like, oh my gosh, really? We divide over these things. This is wild to me. Yeah.

28:36.43
Jenn Chen
Yeah.

28:37.30
Jen Oshman
And so I think it's kind of been a naivete of like, I just didn't know people were disagreeing about these things.

28:43.04
Jenn Chen
Yeah.

28:43.33
Jen Oshman
And then it has been um a ah drive of like, I've seen it work really well when people who disagree work, you know, exalt Jesus in good faith way.

28:51.39
Jenn Chen
Yeah.

28:55.16
Jen Oshman
So that's been, that's been motivating to me is that I've seen it and you guys have seen it.

28:59.56
Jenn Chen
yeah

28:59.73
Jen Oshman
And so I want i want to see it here in the U.S.

29:00.58
Jenn Chen
yeah

29:02.81
Don
Thank you.

29:05.19
Jenn Chen
How would you describe your heart for women? What's that compelling message that comes in through all your all your writing and to the church, actually?

29:11.27
Jen Oshman
a

29:18.94
Jen Oshman
Yeah, I think my cry for women, especially in my home culture, my home context, is I want women so badly to know that they were created good and created necessary.

29:34.34
Jen Oshman
That are participation in the mission of God isn't just an invitation or an afterthought or an addendum, but that is essential.

29:46.43
Jenn Chen
Yeah.

29:46.82
Jen Oshman
That it is our, our full participation is required. And um I have the sense that many women in America don't know that.

29:58.98
Jen Oshman
ah One of my daughters and I wrote a book for girls last year that came out earlier this or last year called It's Good to Be a Girl.

29:59.10
Jenn Chen
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

30:06.35
Jen Oshman
And it's a children's book. It's very beautifully illustrated.

30:07.49
Jenn Chen
Mm-hmm.

30:08.67
Jen Oshman
And it just looks at all of the ways God made women, the the diversity of women in the scriptures and the diversity of women who are alive now and the diversity of our callings, God's creativity.

30:20.24
Jen Oshman
in I hear from women probably weekly that read that book to their daughters. And they just weep because they said, nobody told me this. I didn't know that I could be those things. I didn't know that I was needed.

30:35.86
Don
Mm-hmm.

30:35.93
Jen Oshman
um i What I've absorbed is that that my roles are limited and my voice needs to be quiet.

30:42.72
Jenn Chen
um um

30:46.02
Jen Oshman
And I know I'm speaking in generalizations, right? please hear me. like I know that that is not every woman's story across this country, but I i don't think it's an uncommon story.

30:58.09
Jen Oshman
And so one of my passions in this season has just been to sort of shout the truth as much as I'm able, is that women, you're not an afterthought and you're not You're not a helpful end note.

31:13.34
Jen Oshman
You are crucial from the very beginning. And so I want to equip you and encourage you and empower you. And the Lord has has things for you. So let's go get it

31:25.72
Jenn Chen
I'm struck hearing you share that, Jen, about the different cultures around the world. Also, even less value is assigned to women. yeah, growing up as, you know, a Chinese American and my parents love another Lord. So it wasn't this way in my family, but we're family of all girls as well.

31:46.08
Jenn Chen
But prior to my generation, it was just this focus on, on boys. They were the ones that carried on the family name and the value set on the male offspring, you know?

32:01.94
Jenn Chen
And I think the kingdom message is what you just said. And I, I think

32:08.72
Jenn Chen
if in America where we can actually choose what we're going to do and we have a lot more freedom, but then in cultures that don't have any say, that message is for them too.

32:19.59
Don
Mm-hmm.

32:19.91
Jen Oshman
Yeah.

32:20.01
Jenn Chen
And that's the kingdom.

32:20.95
Jen Oshman
Amen.

32:22.32
Jenn Chen
That's the kingdom word.

32:23.02
Jen Oshman
Yeah.

32:23.34
Jenn Chen
That's what, so I love what you just said, necessary, essential, and full participation. think we are in this endeavor to bring about his glory the nations, right?

32:38.23
Jen Oshman
Yeah.

32:38.41
Jenn Chen
so i I love that word. and i And to girls, I think that that's such a and a time where the conversation is convoluted and confusing at best.

32:49.43
Jen Oshman
Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely.

32:51.50
Jenn Chen
To speak truth.

32:51.72
Jen Oshman
and And you're so right.

32:52.67
Jenn Chen
Yeah.

32:53.40
Jen Oshman
the The message is key overseas as well. i think it's key. It's key globally. um But you and I, we know that some of the fastest moving, fastest growing churches, it's happening amongst women.

33:06.56
Jenn Chen
Absolutely.

33:06.94
Jen Oshman
ah And because that's because who Jesus is, Jesus sees those on the margins.

33:11.24
Jenn Chen
Mm-hmm.

33:11.87
Jen Oshman
Jesus sees those who are oppressed and he invites them in.

33:14.68
Jenn Chen
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

33:15.34
Jen Oshman
And that's the reality for women globally in many places. And so In the first century, women flocked to Jesus because he invited them to, and he made space for them.

33:27.48
Jen Oshman
And he commanded them to be disciples and to learn and to go alongside their brothers. And that's how the church grew, you know, literally through the ministry of of Jesus through women. And and that hasn't changed.

33:43.76
Jen Oshman
um That remains true. And we see that. It's so encouraging to see that in different pockets around the world.

33:45.96
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

33:48.56
Jen Oshman
But But it is a growth, as you say, that comes from from oppression and from hardship and from those who are on the margins crying out.

33:56.26
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

33:58.98
Jenn Chen
Hmm.

33:59.64
Jen Oshman
for help. And the Lord says, I see you. And, and he is our help. So it is a radical, like, it's just so the whole thing is so radical. And I think it maybe it's gotten lost in the, in the wealth and the programs and the consumeristic nature of the American church. It's just that those, that key central messages of our faith have somehow gotten muddied by I don't know, if we would it probably take us 10 years of podcasting to get to the bottom of that. But, um but it's a grief that it's been lost.

34:29.33
Jenn Chen
Yeah, absolutely.

34:33.21
Jenn Chen
I'm curious, Jen, what you would want to say to, you know, because we are co-laboring together with men, right? Men and women together. co creatating What would you want to say to men in ministry?

34:46.90
Jenn Chen
what would be your word to to them?

34:49.03
Jen Oshman
it's not

34:48.94
Jenn Chen
How can we together, does this message translate into the church? So it's a cry and a call for all of us.

35:00.30
Jen Oshman
Yeah. mean, that is something that I am spending a lot of time right now doing is, is wanting to reach men in ministry um and just be a spokesperson for my sisters in the faith.

35:07.98
Jenn Chen
Mm-hmm.

35:11.38
Jenn Chen
Mm-hmm.

35:11.90
Jen Oshman
I think that a lot of men in ministry in the United States, and again, I i know this is ah a generalization, but it's a true generalization nonetheless. i do think a lot of men in ministry mean well and are afraid of getting it wrong.

35:26.80
Jen Oshman
And some of that fear and that caution leads to the marginalization of women unintentionally. That there's just ah maybe they haven't been shown well what it could look like.

35:39.03
Jen Oshman
to co-labor. ah They haven't seen a good example and they've and they've received strong caution. And so I think that speaks for a big part of it. Of course, some are doing it intentionally.

35:50.99
Jen Oshman
you know We don't need to get into all that. want to assume the best.

35:54.42
Jenn Chen
yeah

35:54.58
Jen Oshman
um And so what I have tried to, what I keep wanting to communicate to my brothers is that's who we are. We are brothers and sisters.

36:04.100
Jen Oshman
The new Testament speaks first and foremost of of us as the household of God.

36:04.100
Jenn Chen
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

36:08.83
Jen Oshman
And so we're co-heirs together on mission together, busy about our father's business together.

36:11.50
Jenn Chen
Mm-hmm.

36:13.99
Jen Oshman
So what is it, what would a healthy functioning family look like where moms and dads, brothers and sisters, aunts and uncles, grandmas and grandpas are all at the table,

36:19.98
Jenn Chen
Mm.

36:25.12
Jen Oshman
um A family where only a father is speaking, only a brother is speaking is dysfunctional.

36:29.09
Jenn Chen
Mm.

36:30.19
Jen Oshman
um We need all members of the of the family at the table. The Lord has has has made us all good and necessary. the Lord has equipped all of us. And so um i just continuously, when whenever I'm able, I want to challenge and encourage my brothers to view us as sisters who are ready to co-labor,

36:50.60
Jen Oshman
not Not women who are threats, not women who are temptations, not women who are anything other than sisters on mission.

36:57.81
Jenn Chen
Yeah.

37:00.21
Jenn Chen
I love that.

37:01.100
Don
Some years ago, I, speaking as a brother in this conversation, ah really back my home church a long time ago, affirmed and came to a full clarification that women are called, and they're half the church, they need to be able to participate.

37:21.31
Don
so and And then more recently, I've been in this university context where

37:21.50
Jenn Chen
um

37:26.91
Don
Up until very recently, 70% of the students are women. And we would do these classes on the Quran and Islam and we'd have three men and 20 women.

37:31.19
Jenn Chen
um

37:36.29
Don
And initially I i bemoaned, I thought, where are the men? i thought, women are here. They're eager. Let's work them and empower them. So I've, for many years now, I've taught to affirm women and encourage them.

37:45.25
Jen Oshman
um

37:50.30
Don
Those who are academic, like, go get your degree, get your doctorate. you know If you're a writer, write, like you both do. but Jen Chen just published a book herself recently, or it's a book about to come out.

37:57.75
Jenn Chen
Yeah. Yeah.

38:03.30
Don
So it's exciting. and you know I've got two daughters, and one preaches regularly.

38:05.44
Jenn Chen
Yeah.

38:07.86
Jenn Chen
yeah

38:10.60
Don
The other one's a physicist, outstanding scientist. So it's it's such an important message to the church everywhere. And my context is Muslim world, where the women are generally very oppressed.

38:23.77
Jenn Chen
Yes.

38:24.95
Don
And so when they see what Jesus offers women, they want more.

38:25.09
Jenn Chen
Yes. me

38:29.93
Jen Oshman
Yeah.

38:30.64
Don
Yeah.

38:31.02
Jenn Chen
Yes.

38:32.93
Jen Oshman
Amen.

38:32.94
Jenn Chen
Yeah. Yeah. I love that. This is the gospel. I just feel like, yeah, this is it.

38:45.71
Jenn Chen
Jen, as you were talking, I just couldn't help but notice your face light up and you're talking faster. And there's this there's this word that is in you that God is fire and passion. I just want to affirm that.

39:00.63
Jenn Chen
you know So it feels funny asking this question, but just what's been a joy in this season for you?

39:00.81
Jen Oshman
Thank you, Jen.

39:10.47
Jen Oshman
Well, I think, um i think um at the risk of being sounding redundant, I think ah joy for me has just been seeing Jesus's church here in the United States.

39:22.42
Jenn Chen
Yes.

39:23.19
Jen Oshman
um you know, for all its faults and all the ways that I try to push back on it and the ways that I do critique, I am also just deeply grateful for the work of God here in in this country.

39:36.07
Jen Oshman
and And he is at work. And so I think that just continues to surprise me. Maybe one day it won't, um but it continues to surprise me that he brings dead people to life, even here in suburban Colorado.

39:49.84
Jen Oshman
So i think my joy is, yeah, the church is growing.

39:49.92
Jenn Chen
yes

39:53.100
Jen Oshman
It actually, people, you know, i in my context, which I, as I said, I would never have picked to live here.

39:57.19
Jenn Chen
yeah

40:02.25
Jen Oshman
It's this affluent setting with um with busy people who all their kids are on sports travel teams, you know, the whole picture. And yet they are showing up more and more on Sundays to hear the gospel of Jesus and to confess that they need salvation and they want salvation and they want the hope.

40:21.75
Jenn Chen
Oh, good.

40:23.28
Jen Oshman
And, um, that I, I just don't think I'm ever going to get over it. I'm so thankful.

40:28.13
Jenn Chen
Yeah.

40:29.44
Don
Wow.

40:30.38
Jenn Chen
No, I don't think that you'll ever stop being amazed. You just said he raises dead people to life. I think that's that's a miracle, right? And I think every time we see someone encounter him or fresh, it doesn't matter where we live.

40:45.61
Jenn Chen
as one who also resisted being back in the States for the last almost six years, dragging my feet saying, no, it's but you know it felt more it felt more exciting.

40:46.52
Jen Oshman
Yeah.

40:49.41
Jen Oshman
Right.

40:54.07
Don
Let me go back.

40:57.17
Jenn Chen
It felt more, don't know, whatever it feels.

41:00.20
Jen Oshman
Yeah.

41:00.44
Jenn Chen
It's equally, if not more exciting right now, what we're watching and among Gen So I think anytime we get to witness a life transformed, it doesn't matter where we are.

41:01.54
Jen Oshman
Right.

41:04.83
Jen Oshman
Yeah. Yeah.

41:07.20
Don
Uh-huh.

41:12.100
Jenn Chen
But what a gift that you are seeing it and loving people and calling them, yeah, calling their, the speaking true identity over them, which is what strikes me as what you're doing.

41:24.64
Jen Oshman
e

41:25.88
Jenn Chen
You're speaking identity. Yeah. What's been a challenge that you are currently, yeah, just in ministry or what you feel comfortable sharing?

41:39.38
Jen Oshman
Sure. Well, I think maybe um to make it a little bit more personal, I do feel challenged at the moment with all of my kids becoming adults. My youngest turned 18.

41:51.55
Jen Oshman
a week or two ago. And that is a joy. I mean, it's all, you know, joy and challenge, right?

41:56.54
Jenn Chen
Mm-hmm.

41:59.02
Jen Oshman
One joy is that these girls are becoming increasingly my dearest friends, because they're, they're amazing, amazing young women.

41:59.27
Jenn Chen
Mm-hmm.

42:07.32
Jenn Chen
Mm-hmm.

42:08.16
Jen Oshman
um But it is also challenging to know, you know, how to parent in this age, how how to um encourage and when to speak and when to be quiet and when to visit and when not to visit and when to offer a resource and definitely not offer a resource. It's just, and that's, that's hard. ah That has been a challenge is transitioning, I think, into everybody being adults and navigating those relationships.

42:32.87
Jen Oshman
Um,

42:33.27
Jenn Chen
Huge.

42:34.03
Jen Oshman
in a way that is helpful to them. And yeah, I mean, i it really is a joy, but transitions, just it's a big transition for our whole family, which I know you guys have experienced it as well.

42:42.77
Jenn Chen
Huge.

42:45.14
Jen Oshman
um And it's again, asking that question of like, okay, here we are with these things now.

42:45.65
Jenn Chen
Yeah.

42:50.18
Jen Oshman
How do we be faithful now? What does that look like now? And so definitely asking the Lord to help me with that as well.

42:58.04
Jenn Chen
yeah That is real, girl, the next 10 years.

43:04.44
Jen Oshman
Right?

43:04.86
Jenn Chen
Let's on them its hold on to the Lord, all that you said.

43:10.17
Jen Oshman
Yes, absolutely.

43:13.36
Jenn Chen
What would you, this is a question that I was thinking about as you have so much wisdom to share, but I wonder what would you tell your younger self?

43:27.02
Jenn Chen
Or what did you what do you wish that you knew when you were first stepping out into ministry or into life for that matter?

43:30.50
Jen Oshman
yeah

43:34.40
Jenn Chen
seems like it little synonymous, adulting and ministry.

43:35.67
Jen Oshman
Mm hmm. Yes.

43:40.68
Jen Oshman
Yeah, you know, especially for the overseas worker, I hope that this is a question or an answer that will not feel discouraging, and maybe just be food for a thought.

43:53.47
Jen Oshman
um When I look back on taking our girls to three different continents, ah adopting, um ah we actually adopted way out of birth order, we had a two, four and six year old when we brought home a 12 year old.

44:06.89
Jen Oshman
And that was international as well. um And then coming back abruptly to the US, I mean, i feel like we put our kids through a lot. um

44:16.50
Jenn Chen
Mm.

44:17.46
Jen Oshman
And now that they're bit older, they are able to, I think, have more objective conversations about it. um Or they're be ah they're more able to reflect on how those things shaped them.

44:30.09
Jenn Chen
Mm.

44:33.12
Jen Oshman
I'm very thankful to be able to say that I don't have any regrets. i i don't look back on our life and go, oh man, we really shouldn't have done that.

44:41.13
Jenn Chen
Mm.

44:42.04
Jen Oshman
Thank God i don't feel that. um And i I think I can honestly say that we would do it all again. um And so would my kids. However, that time, we were young, they were young.

44:58.11
Jen Oshman
I don't think i appreciated. i don't think I, I could really fully consider how hard it was for them and how it would shape them as, as adults and how it would lead into some hard things, you know, in terms of just anxiety and acceptance and the ways that they navigate life.

45:08.02
Jenn Chen
Mm-hmm.

45:14.52
Jenn Chen
Mm-hmm.

45:18.66
Jen Oshman
And they've been so shaped by just the tumultuousness that was living in various countries and being an outsider.

45:24.11
Jenn Chen
Yeah.

45:27.01
Jen Oshman
um And, you know, thankfully, we we all talk about it pretty openly and pretty deeply. And one of them just said to me the other night, you know, if it wasn't that, it would have been something else, even if we were here the whole time. And I think that's true. And I'm thankful that they trust the Lord and they can see, you know, don't know. I guess what I would have told my younger self is not to stop, not to slow down, not to change probably, but to just know that.

45:58.73
Jen Oshman
this is leaving probably a deeper mark than you are aware.

46:01.77
Jenn Chen
Yeah.

46:04.08
Jen Oshman
And perhaps just know that and be ready for that and and don't deflect it or defend it, receive it and know that God is big enough for that.

46:16.100
Jen Oshman
and it's And he's going to be faithful in the future as well.

46:22.50
Don
Be real, be honest.

46:24.70
Jen Oshman
Yeah. Yeah. I think we're just, naive you don't know what you don't know. We were naive and, and that's okay.

46:29.65
Jenn Chen
yeah

46:31.62
Jen Oshman
Like you gotta, who's, who's not, you gotta be naive if you're going to do these things that we do, but maybe just owning it a little earlier. I don't know.

46:39.98
Jenn Chen
absolutely yeah yeah I love that thanks Jen yeah really really appreciate you being with us we could talk all day actually on any one of those moments that we had but grateful for your honesty and for your work and excited to

46:43.11
Don
Wow. Wow.

46:47.02
Jen Oshman
Thank you guys.

46:54.66
Jen Oshman
like so Thanks.

47:02.56
Jenn Chen
hear more about the three books that are coming out this next year.

47:07.77
Jen Oshman
Thank you so much, you guys. I'm grateful for you as well. I'm so grateful for the work that everybody is doing that is listening and for what the Lord is doing through every listener. It's a big, big story. And it's really humbling to be one small part of it.

47:20.71
Jenn Chen
Absolutely.

47:20.80
Don
Can you just briefly tell us, the listeners, where they can find, you've got a blog spot, you've got, just tell us briefly what it is so they can, if they can look follow up.

47:29.55
Jen Oshman
Sure.

47:31.91
Jen Oshman
Yeah. Yeah. My website's just jenoshman.com. Oshman is O-S-H-M-A-N. So I'm on social media as well. Jen Oshman.

47:40.07
Don
Okay.

47:40.71
Jenn Chen
Perfect.

47:42.34
Don
Thank you so much. This has been a, thanks for being open and vulnerable with us.

47:44.04
Jen Oshman
Thanks friends.

47:47.94
Jenn Chen
Yes.

47:48.15
Don
May God use this.

47:48.22
Jen Oshman
Absolutely.

47:51.50
Don
Thank you so much.